COMING SOON IN 2012

[Mavrickindigo]

And yet you continue to ignore the problem of the design. I'd be all fine and dandy with you writing your stories, if they weren't blatantly "Not-SEGA Echidnas"

[Lammy]

@Lammy:

Trust me, there is art of the Lara-Su's father, and he will be revealed. However, a good showman always saves the best for last, so you've got a two or three of characters to go before his unveiling. The next character is just about ready while the following character will soon be. I'm still deciding whether or not I want to unveil the third character before the father or after, as I'm trying to decide which order will get me the maximum impact of exposure.

You think I didn't anticipate everyone's questions about the father when planning this?

And a good showman is able to see when the whole audience doesn't believe him and find what's been revealed so far unsatisfying. Then, that good showman change his plan and reveals the best part to gain the trust of his audience back.

[BobR]

We've only seen minor changes. Where are the "major changes" then ?

You'll see those when the story comes out.

[BobR]

And yet you continue to ignore the problem of the design. I'd be all fine and dandy with you writing your stories, if they weren't blatantly "Not-SEGA Echidnas"

Mavrick, you seem intent on ignoring the fact there is no such thing as a "SEGA echidna," with the exception of Knuckles.

[Mavrickindigo]

And yet you continue to ignore the problem of the design. I'd be all fine and dandy with you writing your stories, if they weren't blatantly "Not-SEGA Echidnas"

Mavrick, you seem intent on ignoring the fact there is no such thing as a "SEGA echidna," with the exception of Knuckles.

BobR, you seem intent on ignoring the fact that nearly everyone who will ever see this product will associate this with SEGA and Knuckles. You're arguing semantics, that's a SEGA-style Echidna, no matter how you slice it.

[Lammy]

We've only seen minor changes. Where are the "major changes" then ?

You'll see those when the story comes out.

No, that is not a good excuse, sir. We, the potential customers, need to see the major changes.

[Lammy]

And yet you continue to ignore the problem of the design. I'd be all fine and dandy with you writing your stories, if they weren't blatantly "Not-SEGA Echidnas"

Mavrick, you seem intent on ignoring the fact there is no such thing as a "SEGA echidna," with the exception of Knuckles.

Knuckles, Tikal, Pachacamac, Shade, Lord Piroth'Ix, the pirate echidnas and all the others background echidnas that appeared in SONIC ADVENTURE and SONIC CHRONICLES. You seem intent on ignoring facts !

[Luger]

And a good showman is able to see when the whole audience doesn't believe him and find what's been revealed so far unsatisfying. Then, that good showman change his plan and reveals the best part to gain the trust of his audience back.

...Yeah, don't speak as if you represent the 'whole audience'. Furthermore, the way you post you certainly don't come across like someone who would be part of the 'audience' by buying and reading Ken's graphic novels.

[Lammy]

And a good showman is able to see when the whole audience doesn't believe him and find what's been revealed so far unsatisfying. Then, that good showman change his plan and reveals the best part to gain the trust of his audience back.

...Yeah, don't speak as if you represent the 'whole audience'. Furthermore, the way you post you certainly don't come across like someone who would be part of the 'audience' by buying and reading Ken's graphic novels.

We all know that you like this project, Luger, but you don't represent the whole audience neither.
I don't, but I know that the Sonic fans (you know, the audience) don't like Ken's project. I frequent various websites and forums (Sonic Stadium, Sonic Retro, Sonic Online, Sonic the Comic Online boards, the Sega forums and others...and there are the comments on TSSZ, Sonic Wrecks...) and no one is interested in this project. Mostly because of Ken's behaviour, but also because of the "questionnable" art (let's be polite), the Knuckles clones and many other reasons.

Furthermore, the way you post you certainly don't come across like someone who would be part of the 'audience' by buying and reading Ken's graphic novels.

I've bought every issues of the KNUCKLES comics, so maybe that means I could have been interested in that project, mhh ? So much for assuming something about me when you clearly don't know me

And even if I wasn't part of that audience doesn't mean I don't have the right to be here and post. That remark was totally irrelevant.

[Mavrickindigo]

If you guys are so confident that there is an audience, why don't you host a poll to see if they exist or not? I'd bet if you did, most people would vote "no I wouldn't buy this."

[Tylinos]

To be fair to Ken here, there is an audience. It's just that it's not nearly as large as it could have been for the reasons Lammy said. Outside of this forum, the response has been overwhelmingly negative. If knowing that doesn't matter to Ken, then that's his decision to make.

[PaulAgnew]

Since when did Poison Ivy?

Unless I'm mistaken, around the late 80's to early 90's when illustrating female characters as sex objects became part of the norm in comic books.

Sure you're not thinking Street Fighter with Chun-Li or something?

Not at all. Never played any of the Street Fighter franchise (as paradoxical as it may sound, video games don't really do it for me), thus any similarities are coincidental.

[Ken Penders]

@Lammy:

Tikal, Pachacamac, Shade, Lord Piroth'Ix, the pirate echidnas and all the others background echidnas that appeared in SONIC ADVENTURE and SONIC CHRONICLES. You seem intent on ignoring facts !

FACT: All of these characters appeared well after I developed my cast for the KNUCKLES series. I'd say more with regards to this subject, but that would again be akin to Macy's telling Gimbel's their corporate secrets, which brings me to my next point.

If you guys are so confident that there is an audience, why don't you host a poll to see if they exist or not? I'd bet if you did, most people would vote "no I wouldn't buy this."

The fact I'm doing THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES means I know based on actual evidence that there is an audience for the story. Anyone who knows me knows I don't do vanity projects. However, in the current environment - namely the legal matters which are taking place between Archie, Sega, EA and myself - it is impossible to publicly measure the amount of public support because many people fail to take into account the very real possibility that public opinion for the project is being manipulated by various factions for their own interests. I acknowledge my interests when I promote the project, but others aren't going to be quite as up front where they're coming from simply because they have a vested interest in generating public opinion against my work at this time and especially this project. And one needn't be a rocket scientist to figure out who.

Many people who do voice their support to me in private do so because they have no desire to be sucked into an online war, which I well understand.

Also to consider, there is no such thing as a United Sonic Fandom. Even fans who collect the comics get into disagreements over which is better - the Fleetway version or Archie licensed titles.

And yet again, while I would like to go deeper into this discussion, that'll have to do for now.

I've acknowledged comments people make about the project, my art and anything else related. Anyone and everyone is free to voice an opinion. All I ask is it be constructive. I may not necessarily respond, but I do read everything. And if I respond, I may not agree with the position some have taken but I don't tear down anyone expressing that opinion. All I ask here is the same courtesy. Thanks.

[Luger]

And a good showman is able to see when the whole audience doesn't believe him and find what's been revealed so far unsatisfying. Then, that good showman change his plan and reveals the best part to gain the trust of his audience back.

...Yeah, don't speak as if you represent the 'whole audience'. Furthermore, the way you post you certainly don't come across like someone who would be part of the 'audience' by buying and reading Ken's graphic novels.

We all know that you like this project, Luger, but you don't represent the whole audience neither.

I never spoke on behalf of the audience at large though, you did. Hence my remark.

Furthermore, the way you post you certainly don't come across like someone who would be part of the 'audience' by buying and reading Ken's graphic novels.

I've bought every issues of the KNUCKLES comics, so maybe that means I could have been interested in that project, mhh ? So much for assuming something about me when you clearly don't know me

And even if I wasn't part of that audience doesn't mean I don't have the right to be here and post. That remark was totally irrelevant.

My remark wasn't based on if you read the Knuckles the Echidna series, or if you were interested in Ken's previous work, it was that with the attitude you persistently convey on this forum you don't come across as someone who intends to even read the upcoming graphic novels, and as such you wouldn't fit into the category of the potential 'audience' of the series you were speaking on behalf of.

[Tylinos]

Tikal, Pachacamac, Shade, Lord Piroth'Ix, the pirate echidnas and all the others background echidnas that appeared in SONIC ADVENTURE and SONIC CHRONICLES. You seem intent on ignoring facts !

FACT: All of these characters appeared well after I developed my cast for the KNUCKLES series.

That depends on when Sonic Adventure actually went into development. It's a bit of a close one in that regard. But just counting the full public release of the game, then yes.

I'd say more with regards to this subject, but that would again be akin to Macy's telling Gimbel's their corporate secrets, which brings me to my next point. The fact I'm doing THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES means I know based on actual evidence that there is an audience for the story.

I assume this relates to just the whole Sonic Chronicles thing, not Sonic Adventure. You could make a pretty decent argument that Chronicles existing at all shows you have an audience, though to be fair people can counterargue that most people didn't buy that game simply because Echidnas were in it. But I'm going to assume you didn't mean Sonic Adventure with that, because the thought that Echidnas were in that game because of the comic is just silly.

However, in the current environment - namely the legal matters which are taking place between Archie, Sega, EA and myself - it is impossible to publicly measure the amount of public support because many people fail to take into account the very real possibility that public opinion for the project is being manipulated by various factions for their own interests. I acknowledge my interests when I promote the project, but others aren't going to be quite as up front where they're coming from simply because they have a vested interest in generating public opinion against my work at this time and especially this project. And one needn't be a rocket scientist to figure out who.

Am I reading this wrong, or are you implying Sega is manipulating public opinion against you? I hope I'm reading that wrong.

[Ken Penders]

@Tylinos:

Am I reading this wrong, or are you implying Sega is manipulating public opinion against you? I hope I'm reading that wrong.

Without evidence that people will accept, I can't point fingers at specific parties. However, let's just say I have good reason to believe what I do. You are specifically mentioning Sega. I did not. And there's more than one of the Usual Suspects that can be included in the line-up for various reasons, most having to do with self-interest. I think I'm pretty upfront with mine with regards to THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES.

[Tylinos]

You are specifically mentioning Sega. I did not.

That's why I said "I hope I'm reading that wrong." It made it seem like you meant that, which looked pointlessly paranoid because, like you said, there'd be no evidence to believe that that amounts to more than "Sega might be the cause of public opinion being the way it is."

[Lammy]

FACT: All of these characters appeared well after I developed my cast for the KNUCKLES series. I'd say more with regards to this subject, but that would again be akin to Macy's telling Gimbel's their corporate secrets, which brings me to my next point.

If you're implying that Sega based these characters on yours or something, here's a new fact for you : You are not the first one who created a female echidna in a licenced Sonic comic book.
Meet Princess Aluçion, created in 1994 for the french "SONIC ADVENTURES" book from 1993-94.

I don't do vanity projects

What about that infamous Sonic movie you kept talking about for years ? You even promised, on your old board, to show everything you made to your fans (concepts, storyboards...) but you showed nothing.

I never spoke on behalf of the audience at large though, you did. Hence my remark.

Because I'm not stuck on this forum and I saw the reaction of the audience.

My remark wasn't based on if you read the Knuckles the Echidna series, or if you were interested in Ken's previous work, it was that with the attitude you persistently convey on this forum you don't come across as someone who intends to even read the upcoming graphic novels, and as such you wouldn't fit into the category of the potential 'audience' of the series you were speaking on behalf of.

So ?

[BobR]

FACT: All of these characters appeared well after I developed my cast for the KNUCKLES series. I'd say more with regards to this subject, but that would again be akin to Macy's telling Gimbel's their corporate secrets, which brings me to my next point.

If you're implying that Sega based these characters on yours or something, here's a new fact for you : You are not the first one who created a female echidna in a licenced Sonic comic book. Meet Princess Aluçion, created in 1994 for the french "SONIC ADVENTURES" book from 1993-94.

I don't believe he was saying nor implying that at all, Lammy. It's just your faulty interpretation. And I acknowledge the reference to the other SEGA echidnas. But that, to me, just vindicates Ken -- there just isn't enough material with Knuckles alone to make effective stories (or video games.)

What about that infamous Sonic movie you kept talking about for years ? You even promised, on your old board, to show everything you made to your fans (concepts, storyboards...) but you showed nothing.

Discussions concerning the movie were underway when SEGA America (and Ken) suffered a major tragedy in the untimely passing of Robert Leffler due to cancer. Bob was a major proponent and champion for the movie in SEGA. His death threw everything into disarray. By the time things got sorted out, Ken was well engrossed in other projects, though the movie idea has not been abandoned. (At which point I can hear you screaming something about why the lawsuit now if he still wants to do a Sonic movie. We'll just have to see about that, but one of the reasons for taking action now does include something called a statute of limitations.)

Because I'm not stuck on this forum and I saw the reaction of the audience

No, you haven't seen the audience, either. You've only seen the reaction of the groups that post on the other forums, which only make up a very small percentage of the total audience. And most groups like that typically have a fair amount of inbreeding -- in other words, they draw people who think like the majority of the group, rather than the majority at large. And yes, I do include these forums in that statement. We also realize there is a warping affect only because this is Ken's board.

[Tylinos]

FACT: All of these characters appeared well after I developed my cast for the KNUCKLES series. I'd say more with regards to this subject, but that would again be akin to Macy's telling Gimbel's their corporate secrets, which brings me to my next point.

If you're implying that Sega based these characters on yours or something...

I don't believe he was saying nor implying that at all, Lammy. It's just your faulty interpretation.

Wait, then what was he suing Sega and EA over, again?

Because I'm not stuck on this forum and I saw the reaction of the audience

No, you haven't seen the audience, either. You've only seen the reaction of the groups that post on the other forums, which only make up a very small percentage of the total audience. And most groups like that typically have a fair amount of inbreeding -- in other words, they draw people who think like the majority of the group, rather than the majority at large. And yes, I do include these forums in that statement. We also realize there is a warping affect only because this is Ken's board.

Two things here. One, even in cases where a forum has members all with similiar viewpoints, you'll almost always see at least some dissenters voicing their opinions. Heck, even Ken himself said earlier that people in the Sonic fandom often get into disagreements like this. With the Ken stuff, I can count on one hand the number of times in the past two years on the many forums and sites I've seen discussing this (excluding this one) where people were speaking up in support of him for anything other than "He at least deserves royalties for reprints," which I see quite often and agree with myself.

Two, let's look at Sonic Retro, for example. It's one of the largest and highly trafficked Sonic websites out there, and has even earned itself notability with Sega. One thing the members of Retro are known for is that they disagree and argue constantly. And yet the Ken topic there is one of the only topics I've ever seen in the 8+ years I've been going there to reach anywhere near the length it has and yet have almost every single poster there in agreement on the subject.

[Ken Penders]

@Lammy:

If you're implying that Sega based these characters on yours or something, here's a new fact for you : You are not the first one who created a female echidna in a licenced Sonic comic book.
Meet Princess Aluçion, created in 1994 for the french "SONIC ADVENTURES" book from 1993-94.

Sega being influenced by what I did is a lot more likely than me being influenced by a comic book I didn't even know existed at the time. I didn't even see a single Fleetway issue until 1998 or 1999 as I recall.

What about that infamous Sonic movie you kept talking about for years ? You even promised, on your old board, to show everything you made to your fans (concepts, storyboards...) but you showed nothing.

That was never a vanity project, as I had several meetings with Sega executives from both sides of the Pacific with regards to making it a reality. My lawsuit is what kept me from posting any of the details for the time being.

One other point, Lammy, one of the reasons there has been a lot of negative reaction to what I'm doing is that essentially if I prevail in my efforts, then the SONIC title as everyone has known it for so long could conceivably undergo a radical change as a result. If that were to happen, it'll be because other parties other than myself were not interested in working out an agreeable fair and equitable arrangement. Still, the fact it could happen is what is generating a lot of concern and fear over what the future may bring. If I was just some average person who had no association with the series, no one would be giving me the time of day no matter what I said. The fact that I did create a lot of the key material of the series, including many of the most beloved characters to appear in the books, is why people can't ignore what I'm doing.

@Tylinos:

Wait, then what was he suing Sega and EA over, again?

Essentially, they used my material as the basis for part of the video game SONIC CHRONICLES THE DARK BROTHERHOOD, among other things. It was Sonic fans who pointed out the use of my material in this matter that started the whole thing rolling.

[Tylinos]

If you're implying that Sega based these characters on yours or something, here's a new fact for you : You are not the first one who created a female echidna in a licenced Sonic comic book.
Meet Princess Aluçion, created in 1994 for the french "SONIC ADVENTURES" book from 1993-94.

Sega being influenced by what I did is a lot more likely than me being influenced by a comic book I didn't even know existed at the time.

Sega (well, more Bioware, I guess) being influenced in making Sonic Chronicles? Yeah, probably. But being influenced in making Sonic Adventure? I really doubt it. (Again, not even sure you're even intending to mean Adventure or not, so saying this may not even apply.)

One other point, Lammy, one of the reasons there has been a lot of negative reaction to what I'm doing is that essentially if I prevail in my efforts, then the SONIC title as everyone has known it for so long could conceivably undergo a radical change as a result. If that were to happen, it'll be because other parties other than myself were not interested in working out an agreeable fair and equitable arrangement.

Passing the blame? Really? It's not like none of us knew this, but a lot of us are also working under the belief that whatever agreement you'd be proposing would probably be something many of us would consider rather silly or unfair toward Archie/Sega. The only thing most people agree would be fair, it seems, is asking for simply royalties in return.

Of course, though, it is only just one of the reasons. A lot of people who don't even read the comics are among those who don't like what you're doing.

The fact that I did create a lot of the key material of the series, including many of the most beloved characters to appear in the books, is why people can't ignore what I'm doing.

Which isn't always a good thing. There's a story I wanted to point out at this, but I'm not sure if that person would want me to or not.

Wait, then what was he suing Sega and EA over, again?

Essentially, they used my material as the basis for part of the video game SONIC CHRONICLES THE DARK BROTHERHOOD, among other things. It was Sonic fans who pointed out the use of my material in this matter that started the whole thing rolling.

Well, that's where I'm getting confused. Maybe there was just more misspeaking going on, but it just sounded like BobR was saying you weren't claiming Sega/EA/Bioware was influenced by the Knuckles series, which is why I was confused.

To be fair, though, it's not like your stories never took influence from other works either. (And no, I don't just mean the usual "influenced by Sonic" spiel.)

[Lammy]

there just isn't enough material with Knuckles alone to make effective stories (or video games.)

Again, SONIC THE COMIC had awesome stories with Knuckles all by himself, they didn't need to create useless clones and cities that appeared out of nowhere. Knuckles was still the last echidna on his island (ok, there was one other echidna who appeared in...two stories. Wow !) and had his own adventures. It almost became a second series. So yes, Knuckles IS able to make effective stories.

Sega being influenced by what I did is a lot more likely than me being influenced by a comic book I didn't even know existed at the time. I didn't even see a single Fleetway issue until 1998 or 1999 as I recall.

Sega was not influenced by your works. The story of SONIC ADVENTURE has its roots in SONIC 3 & KNUCKLES' japanese story. They didn't need your work.

Oh, and stop implying that Sega and EA are influencing the fans against you. They haven't even said anything about that matter. It is you who's turning your own fans against you. This person from Sonic Retro said it well :

Seeing Penders' responses to things over the past couple of months, I'd have to say that he's probably more paranoid of ARCHIE manipulating people's opinions. (I believe he even outright called someone an Archie Troll just for speaking out against him.) Either one, though, is quite silly. Especially considering, what has Archie said about it? Something along the lines of "We are responding through the proper legal channels." Essentially, that they're taking care of things and that their fans have nothing to worry about. They wanted to keep people from freaking out over it (and some fans might have), and to say that they're doing something while being professional enough to not really talk about it. SEGA and EA haven't even said ANYTHING. The only person directly involved in these cases who is saying anything or trying to change or manipulate our opinions in any fashion at all is Penders himself.

Quite poorly so, I might add. Anyone who has talked to me outside of these forums will know how much of an effect Penders' old work on the series had on me and my life, especially the Knuckles series. Until the last year or so of his work on the series, he was my favorite writer, flaws and all. But, after the first time he spoke out after leaving Archie, my personal opinion of him and of his professionalism has decreased and continues to do so just about every time he opens his metaphorical mouth.

No, Penders, Sega isn't manipulating fans against you. Besides the sheer stupidity in doing so, why would they? They don't have to. You're doing such a wonderful job on your own. I'm a prime example of it.

Part of me still wants to see him get royalties from the reprints, true. But, the more childish part of me, as well as the anger that he's inspired from the way he's handled this whole thing.... I don't think I want him to see so much as a cent anymore. He doesn't care about the fans. All he cares about is money. I've tried for months to see otherwise, but his actions have made it impossible.

[Mavrickindigo]

public opinion for the project is being manipulated by various factions for their own interests

Even if the opinion of the public is being manipulated, it still means those people don't want to buy your book.

though to be fair people can counterargue that most people didn't buy that game simply because Echidnas were in it.

IIRC, Shade's race was hidden until after the game came out. Also people bought it because 1.) It was a Sonic RPG, 2.) It was being made by BioWare, which was, at that point, a good company.

(At which point I can hear you screaming something about why the lawsuit now if he still wants to do a Sonic movie.

Yeah, good luck getting SEGA to listen to you after you drag them to court.

in other words, they draw people who think like the majority of the group, rather than the majority at large.

How about on 4chan, where most everyone is anonymous? I've seen much more hate for this project there.

[Ken Penders]

@Lammy:

I don't see the point of trying to respond to your posts because whenever I do, I'm taken totally out of context and you simply twist whatever I say to continue making a point that agrees with your worldview. Let me respond one last time so everyone knows where I'm coming from:

Again, SONIC THE COMIC had awesome stories with Knuckles all by himself, they didn't need to create useless clones and cities that appeared out of nowhere. Knuckles was still the last echidna on his island (ok, there was one other echidna who appeared in...two stories. Wow !) and had his own adventures. It almost became a second series. So yes, Knuckles IS able to make effective stories.

That's your opinion, one not necessarily shared by others. I come from the school that recognizes comic books are a business, and a publisher doesn't pull the plug on a book that's making him a lot of money. The fact that Archie's publication is still going while Fleetway's is not conceivably bears this out. The only thing we know is that KNUCKLES was published in his own series here in America, now currently being revived in a reprint collection, whereas that never happened with him with any publisher that I'm aware of. Notice nothing what I've just said has anything to do with whether my stories were better than anything Fleetway produced, as that's not my call, but rather for readers to decide what they like. That's the marketplace. You prefer Fleetway's version over mine. Great. That's how things work. But your opinion and support of the Fleetway version doesn't mean I would agree with your arguments simply because I'm going by different standards than you are.

Sega was not influenced by your works. The story of SONIC ADVENTURE has its roots in SONIC 3 & KNUCKLES' japanese story. They didn't need your work.

With regards to SONIC ADVENTURE, you're taking my words entirely out of context. You pointed out how I was possibly influenced by an extremely obscure French version of SONIC and I responded by making the point which was more likelier. Notice I didn't say in this particular case SEGA actually was influenced, meaning I wasn't influenced by your example either.

Oh, and stop implying that Sega and EA are influencing the fans against you. They haven't even said anything about that matter. It is you who's turning your own fans against you. This person from Sonic Retro said it well :

This is yet another response twisting what I said. I said certain parties were conceivably manipulating posting on various message boards. I didn't say it was a fact and I didn't specify who. Yet there you go identifying specific parties without putting any thought into the process. I am currently involved in litigation against three major corporations. If you think the words "fair play" or "playing by the rules" are the governing operative words in this situation, then you don't understand how corporations work. If people think I'm being paranoid, all they need do is check certain documents filed with the court that are accessible to the public in this case to discover otherwise.

As for the fans, I can't control how they feel when they simply don't understand or know all the facts. If I related the facts as I know them, it would really blow minds and create even more havoc with the responses. I have to wait until I have my day in court for the facts to come out, and even then, there will be people having difficulty accepting those facts because things turned out to be so different from what they imagined. Let's put it this way, even if I were to lose, the book quite possibly will never be the same regardless.

@mavrickindigo:

Even if the opinion of the public is being manipulated, it still means those people don't want to buy your book.

Whoever is going to buy my book is going to do so for their own reasons, most having nothing to do with this case. Those who don't intend to buy won't. What you and others don't get is that creators do something - write a book, create a graphic novel, make a film - because that is what they're moved to do. What separates someone who does it as a hobby or as a fan is that a pro does it as his/her job on a regular basis and gets paid for it. I've been creating material in one form or another since I was 16 and getting paid for it. That's a professional. Some projects are more successful than others. That goes with the territory when one is in my position.

THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES is a work in progress that will reach the marketplace and find its audience. It may not be the same audience you think will support it, but that's okay. But there is an audience, and that's all that matters. I can make it the best work I can and it still flops. That's the marketplace, which is full of uncertainties. What I have to do is provide reasons for readers to check out my project over all the other choices they can spend their hard-earned money on. That's called dealing with the competition. There is no ideal world to run a business in.