COMING SOON IN 2012

A quick glance at what Ken has in the production pipeline.

Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Lammy » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:42 am

Who's twisting someone else's words?

That's your opinion, one not necessarily shared by others. I come from the school that recognizes comic books are a business, and a publisher doesn't pull the plug on a book that's making him a lot of money. The fact that Archie's publication is still going while Fleetway's is not conceivably bears this out. The only thing we know is that KNUCKLES was published in his own series here in America, now currently being revived in a reprint collection, whereas that never happened with him with any publisher that I'm aware of. Notice nothing what I've just said has anything to do with whether my stories were better than anything Fleetway produced, as that's not my call, but rather for readers to decide what they like. That's the marketplace. You prefer Fleetway's version over mine. Great. That's how things work. But your opinion and support of the Fleetway version doesn't mean I would agree with your arguments simply because I'm going by different standards than you are.


I used the STC example to show that Knuckles doesn't need a plethora of characters to have excellent stories. Read what I've said, for once ! And my precedent post was directed to BobR, not you, when he said that "there just isn't enough material with Knuckles alone to make effective stories (or video games.)". I just proved that on the contrary, Knuckles can have excellent stories with him alone. So yes, here, you are the one twisting my words.

Also, the fact that StC got cancelled has nothing to do with the sales. If you'd done your research on the subject, you'd have know that StC cancellation is the fault of Fleetway's policies with reprints, not the quality of the comic itself (as it is generally viewed as "better than Archie").
And don't forget that KNUCKLES only had 32 issues and so, didn't last as long as STC (223 issues). So by your logic, the KNUCKLES series isn't as good as StC.

With regards to SONIC ADVENTURE, you're taking my words entirely out of context. You pointed out how I was possibly influenced by an extremely obscure French version of SONIC and I responded by making the point which was more likelier. Notice I didn't say in this particular case SEGA actually was influenced, meaning I wasn't influenced by your example either.


Ha ha ! Where did I say that you were inspired by the french comic book ? I said that there have been a female echidna before you created one. Here's my exact sentence :
You are not the first one who created a female echidna in a licenced Sonic comic book.

Stop twisting my words, Ken ;)
Last edited by Lammy on Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Lammy » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:27 pm

Oh, and you know that post I quoted two posts ago ? The user has a reply :

WAIT. The only difference between a professional and an hobbyist in writing (or any similar creative work) is that they get PAID? Dude, Penders, I've been published and shit since I was 13. Before I even entered high school. Before most of my friends could even apply for a job. And I've yet to see a single cent. But, I don't care. Why? Because I know that having connections and not burning bridges will be a lot better for my career in the long run than trying to milk that story I wrote almost seven years ago. A professional isn't necessarily the paid one. Hobbyists get paid all the time. It's called Commissions. Are you saying that the person being paid to write furry porn that only one person will ever see (Note: I'm not saying anything bad about furry porn or furries. Just an example.) is more of a professional than myself, even though I've been published in several different publications? (Granted, many were things like school lit books, but they still dealt with a publication process.) Just because I'm unpaid, at least money-wise? Wow, Penders. You're actually managing to make me mad on an even more personal level than before.

He's also proved even further that money is still the primary driving force for him at the end of the day. I mean, he could have done a webcomic on this if it was really about the fans. If it did well, then he could have designed and sold Merch that was very clearly independent from anything official (like with quotes or some de-fictionalized stuff like plushies of the more original designs... or something).... Or maybe I'm thinking of someone else. (Oh, silly me.) Point is, he didn't have to destroy the main, LONGEST-RUNNING LICENSED SERIES just because he felt it was "within his rights" to make a quick buck.

How HARD is it to do something original? I'm doing it NOW. I'm literally doing a crapton of research (a lot of biology and psychology stuff at the moment) for my own ORIGINAL work. It's hard, yes, but it pays off in more ways than just money, and then I have something that's truly mine, something that will be judged on my merits, not on those of another works'. Also, since he mentioned it before, this is what Rowling did for her books. This is what any respectable novelist does (the extent depends on what they're writing). Simply coasting off of the popularity of other works (not just Sonic, but of Star Trek, Star Wars, the Friggin' TWILIGHT ZONE, and so many others I'm not even naming) ....No. If you need money in the interim, get a job. They suck, but they put bread on the table.

As for what you quoted from him in your post.... I just.... I can't even form a coherent sentence. I'll try to come back to that, as I must go play chauffeur now. (Please, no Harry jokes.)

Before I go, feel free to quote whatever you like to him. I don't think he'll really care. He'd likely just say "tl;dr" or some shit. Plus, apparently, "bad language" is ban-able offense there. (what.) But, yeah. If you want to quote anything I say, feel free. (Though, I don't plan to directly respond to his lackey's defenses here. Only Penders' replies to whatever I wrote/write. And I will gladly tear down his lack of evidence.) If anything I said didn't make sense (I just woke up), I'll gladly clarify upon my return.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Darkfox » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:49 pm

I think that the biggest problem is that the character designs have the potential of creating customer confusion.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Julie-Su Fan » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:25 pm

Hey, everyone, I'm a newbie here so please excuse me while I get to know the community and get the hang of things. Like many of you here I've been a fan of Mr. Penders' work in the Sonic comics for quite a while now (if my username is of any indication), but perhaps I should make it clear I'm still a regular reader and fan of the current Archie series. It truly broke my heart when I first laid eyes upon an article on TSSZ News of Ken's lawsuits and copyright allegations, and I felt torn between loyalty to the original creator of the work as well as the company whose ongoing series I still enjoy immensely. Ken, I will start off by saying that I do support your desire for royalties as far as the Sonic, Select, and Knuckles Archives are concerned--as it is indeed unfair to a creator for their employer to reprint their material without any type of compensation--but I was torn when it came to the dispute over the ownership over the characters.

About the business about who the characters truly belong to--really, I think that's probably been discussed to death and the last thing any of you want to hear is me repeating the same old song over and over again. I would think that even if a written agreement weren't present, that there would have at least been some sort of understanding between Mr. Penders and Archie that what he made for the series belonged to the series, but I'll reserve judgement for now, since that is, after all, the judge's job.

As a creator of a fictional universe or two myself, I do sympathize with your plight in many respects, Mr. Penders, yet at the same time it feels a tad excessive and inconsiderate to rip the rug out from under such a beloved and long-running property, one that you allowed to roam free with your characters for years after your departure. I'm a fan of the vast echidna lore, the Dark Legion, Julie-Su, the Brotherhood of Guardians, and M:25YL as much as the next guy, but I have always adored the comic series and it would be such a shame if the series were to suffer from the loss of so many long-established plot elements and characters, many of which are still present and serving a purpose in the comic to this day. I understand that you have an audience that you are trying to reach. I understand that you feel spited and taken advantage of. But the Sonic book is sacred to legions (haha) of fans, and is it fair to them to ruin such a large portion of their favorite comic? I'm sure you've heard this same thing before, but I've been wanting to speak personally to you, Mr. Penders. I just hope that if you do win out in all this, something can be arranged so that Archie can still make use of the characters in some shape or form, with all due compensation to you of course.

I'd like to make a few final points, regarding your lawsuit over Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood: Was it really the best idea to file a lawsuit before the copyright ownership matter with Archie was resolved? It just doesn't seem like the wisest move on your part to get on Sega and EA's bad side at this early stage. If Archie manages to defeat you in court and you lose your copyrights, then you will no longer have any grounds to sue either company and the case will be thrown out by default, correct? Additionally, I don't see how you have a valid argument that your rights were infringed upon when your copyrights hadn't yet been registered, so would you care to enlighten me?

Thanks for reading, and good day.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Mavrickindigo » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:08 pm

Mr. Penders, I heard an interesting argument from one of the sites I go to. They were refering to how you said the only difference between a pro and a fan is that pros get paid.

But earlier on, you've said that Ian was too much of a fan to be a professional

however, Ian gets paid for his work, which, by your definition, is professional.

Better be careful what you say, it's not the Archie Lawyers who will mess with your words, its the fanboys on the internet.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Antarctic Deity » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:45 am

Clearly, everyone on the Internet is a Sega plant (still hilarious.) Look at how successfully they brainwashed everyone into loving Sonic 2006.
And just to point it out one more time: Fleetway (the version of Knuckles where he was the last of his kind) lasted 225 issues. Knuckles lasted 30. Only one of them was cancelled because of sales, and it weren't the long one.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Ken Penders » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:36 pm

@AntarcticDiety:

And just to point it out one more time: Fleetway (the version of Knuckles where he was the last of his kind) lasted 225 issues. Knuckles lasted 30. Only one of them was cancelled because of sales, and it weren't the long one.


Fleetway published SONIC THE COMIC. In other words, unless I'm mistaken, we're not talking apples to apples but rather apples to oranges here. You would compare SONIC THE COMIC with SONIC THE HEDGEHOG, because it is SONIC that is the draw here, not Knuckles. With regards to the KNUCKLES THE ECHIDNA series, again fans really don't know what they're talking about, because I certainly didn't have all the facts until after its cancellation. Even now, going through the motions of this court case, I'm learning more than enough that I could put together a book titled THE HIDDEN BEHIND-THE-SCENES HISTORY OF THE US SONIC COMIC that long time readers would be astounded at what happened and why.

Get back to me when you have an apples to apples comparison regarding sales of a KNUCKLES series published elsewhere vs the one published here in the US, then we'll talk.

@Mavrickindigo:

But earlier on, you've said that Ian was too much of a fan to be a professional

however, Ian gets paid for his work, which, by your definition, is professional.


Looking back, I was probably making the statement out of a sense of disappointment with what I had checked out regarding Ian's work, as I do believe Ian has talent, but I don't believe he's doing his best work. (In case people think I'm backtracking a bit here, if they go back and check out the Sonic-grams pages of many moons ago, they'll find I picked out at least two of Ian's e-mails for publication, as I really felt he had potential as a writer even then. There's more to the story, but let's just say the rest is for inclusion to the Hidden History book I mentioned.)

@Lammy:

The only difference between a professional and an hobbyist in writing (or any similar creative work) is that they get PAID? Dude, Penders, I've been published and shit since I was 13. Before I even entered high school. Before most of my friends could even apply for a job. And I've yet to see a single cent. But, I don't care. Why? Because I know that having connections and not burning bridges will be a lot better for my career in the long run than trying to milk that story I wrote almost seven years ago.


Being paid is only a part of the requirement. Getting paid for what you do on a regular basis to make a living supporting oneself is what separates the pros from the hobbyists. The person whose quote you used is a hobbyist unless he is now selling his work on a regular basis to support himself. Then he is a professional. If you want to go by San Diego Comic-Con standards, then a professional is someone who has three credits to his/her name listing work published, produced and/or distributed by an established company or has produced and sold work that establishes oneself as a viable business. The clear implication here is that one was paid for the work when achieving those credits.

In this day and age, saying you were published before you were 13 is hardly an accomplishment unless you are paid for it. As there have been young teens - and probably pre-teens - who have accomplished such a feat, they would have bragging rights while the person you quote does not.

@Julie-Su Fan:

Was it really the best idea to file a lawsuit before the copyright ownership matter with Archie was resolved?


While I know how filing the lawsuit against SEGA/EA makes me look in the public's eyes, the fact of the matter is that I simply had no choice in the matter of when to file, as such a thing called the statute of limitations was involved. It was either file, or see all the effort I've put into protecting my work go to waste. It was not a decision made lightly, but it was one that had to be made.

Additionally, I don't see how you have a valid argument that your rights were infringed upon when your copyrights hadn't yet been registered, so would you care to enlighten me?


Copyright law is a highly technical and nuanced area of law that many people, including many lawyers, don't have full knowledge or understanding of. Copyrights are automatically granted to the creator upon completion of the finished work. For example, when someone creates a work, once it's completed that person automatically owns the copyright to their work. Whether that work is published or not is immaterial. It is not required that person actually file for their registrations until there is reason to do so, such as taking action against someone infringing on their work. At that point, it becomes a requirement to file as Copyrights are a matter of Federal law ever since the Copyright Act of 1976, thus any case involving Copyrights are automatically handled in Federal Courts, and in order to have standing with the Court, one must have registered copyrights.

The thing people have to remember that it is Archie who is suing me, not me suing them. I'm simply protecting what's mine.

As for the rest of your comments, I found them very thoughtful and wish I could more fully respond. I hope I did my best for now.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Lammy » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:48 pm

Fleetwat published SONIC THE COMIC. In other words, unless I'm mistaken, we're not talking apples to apples but rather apples to oranges here. You would compare SONIC THE COMIC with SONIC THE HEDGEHOG, because it is SONIC that is the draw here, not Knuckles. With regards to the KNUCKLES THE ECHIDNA series, again fans really don't know what they're talking about, because I certainly didn't have all the facts until after its cancellation. Even now, going through the motions of this court case, I'm learning more than enough that I could put together a book titled THE HIDDEN BEHIND-THE-SCENES HISTORY OF THE US SONIC COMIC that long time readers would be astounded at what happened and why.

Get back to me when you have an apples to apples comparison regarding sales of a KNUCKLES series published elsewhere vs the one published here in the US, then we'll talk.


Bwah ah ah oh you can't even be serious with that reply. Knuckles is still seen as "that character from the SONIC series" and that IS the main reason people bought the comic in the first place ! And it doesn't change the fact that it got cancelled far quickier than SONIC THE COMIC.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Antarctic Deity » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:30 pm

Its Knuckles stories were even popular, despite keeping him the last of his kind. So ODD! How did they come up with material?
And again, never bought an issue, no criticism on Ian allowed.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Ken Penders » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:14 pm

@Lammy:

Bwah ah ah oh you can't even be serious with that reply. Knuckles is still seen as "that character from the SONIC series" and that IS the main reason people bought the comic in the first place ! And it doesn't change the fact that it got cancelled far quickier than SONIC THE COMIC.


I WAS serious when I responded, yet you don't want to accept my answer simply because you're a big fan of SONIC THE COMIC. No matter how I respond, you'll never be happy. As for why people bought KNUCKLES, not everyone was a fan of SONIC, nor was every fan a gamer. In fact, even with the SONIC THE HEDGEHOG series, there are many readers who never (a) played the games, (b) watched the cartoons or (c) get involved with Sonic fandom in general. They simply like the comic as a comic book. Nothing more, nothing less.

@Antarctic Diety:

Its Knuckles stories were even popular, despite keeping him the last of his kind. So ODD! How did they come up with material?
And again, never bought an issue, no criticism on Ian allowed.


Look at it this way, if I wrote my stories along the lines of the Knuckles stories featured in SONIC THE COMIC, there would be none of the characters or stories which have transcended the series with many readers. No Julie-Su, no Lien-Da, no Remington and so on. On that basis alone, I think there's a sizable readership that would disagree with you which approach to the character they prefer.

As for my lack of exposure to Ian's material, that was rectified during the past year or so when compiling research for my case.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Lammy » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:05 pm

I WAS serious when I responded, yet you don't want to accept my answer simply because you're a big fan of SONIC THE COMIC. No matter how I respond, you'll never be happy. As for why people bought KNUCKLES, not everyone was a fan of SONIC, nor was every fan a gamer. In fact, even with the SONIC THE HEDGEHOG series, there are many readers who never (a) played the games, (b) watched the cartoons or (c) get involved with Sonic fandom in general. They simply like the comic as a comic book. Nothing more, nothing less.


Of course, now I "don't accept your answers" because I'm a fan of the other series of comic. Totally putting words into my mouth. Are you just unable to see that the quality of the KNUCKLES comics began to fall apart, both art-wise and story-wise ?

Image Image Image

Marvellous stuff ! So pretty art ! Vector, Knuckles and the others look so much on model like this !
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Tylinos » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:45 pm

So, people picked up Sonic the Comic due to Sonic brand recognition...but picked up Knuckles not due to brand recognition? There's a difference between "Picked it up for Knuckles, stayed for your stories," and "Picked it up even without being interested in Knuckles to begin with." I'm sure there were people who went for Knuckles and stayed for the stories, but claiming more than a very tiny fraction of people went in to begin with not because it was a Knuckles comic? What?

Also, "...you don't want to accept my answer simply because you're a big fan of SONIC THE COMIC."? Classy. Really classy.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby PaulAgnew » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:06 pm

Lammy wrote:Are you just unable to see that the quality of the KNUCKLES comics began to fall apart, both art-wise and story-wise ?

Image Image Image


Yes he did. According to a post made here in May 2010:

Ken Penders wrote:1) First off, as long as the rules of the road where posting on this board is concerned are observed, anyone can take their whacks at me. Not every story I did was a gem. Some were even outright stinkers. There are many reasons for this, but because my name is on 'em, and they saw print, you spend your money, you have your say.

2) It all depends on my mood what I consider a bad story I did, but the ones I will acknowledge are "KING OF THE HILL" (published in KNUCKLES #30 through 32) and THE CHOSEN ONE storyline in SONIC #95 through 97. They were failures for more reasons than I can count, but the biggest reason KING OF THE HILL was the failure it was is due to the fact I learned just as I was working on the script to Part One was that the book was scheduled to be cancelled after issue #32. That took all the wind out of my sails at the time, and lack of reference material in preparing for the SONIC ADVENTURE adaptation didn't help improve matters either.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Antarctic Deity » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:38 pm

Ken Penders wrote:Look at it this way, if I wrote my stories along the lines of the Knuckles stories featured in SONIC THE COMIC, there would be none of the characters or stories which have transcended the series with many readers. No Julie-Su, no Lien-Da, no Remington and so on. On that basis alone, I think there's a sizable readership that would disagree with you which approach to the character they prefer.

As for my lack of exposure to Ian's material, that was rectified during the past year or so when compiling research for my case.


That's... that doesn't even make sense. The point you were trying to make was "stories about Knuckles couldn't be made as he was in Sega, as the last of his kind." Nothing you say here disproves that at all: it... I can't even figure out what you're trying to argue anymore. Your stories were better because you made more characters from it? The whole point of this was that those characters have no NEED to exist.

And really now? Which ones did you read?
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby HauntedExodus » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:45 am

Ken Penders wrote:Copyright law is a highly technical and nuanced area of law that many people, including many lawyers, don't have full knowledge or understanding of.

But of course you do, right?!

You'll show those lawyers who've studied and practiced for years who it is that really knows the law! You'll show them who really knows the system!


You'll show them all!
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby PaulAgnew » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:38 am

HauntedExodus wrote:
Ken Penders wrote:Copyright law is a highly technical and nuanced area of law that many people, including many lawyers, don't have full knowledge or understanding of.

But of course you do, right?!

You'll show those lawyers who've studied and practiced for years who it is that really knows the law! You'll show them who really knows the system!


You'll show them all!


Image

Hey Luger, am I fan enough to do this yet? ;)
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Tylinos » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:58 am

Out of everything in this topic, the purposefully over the top sarcasm is what you find facepalmworthy? You so silly, Paul. (Okay, Haunted did go a bit too over the top, but hey.)

And everyone's fan enough for a Picard facepalm. Everyone.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Luger » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:22 pm

Lammy wrote:Bwah ah ah oh you can't even be serious with that reply. Knuckles is still seen as "that character from the SONIC series" and that IS the main reason people bought the comic in the first place ! And it doesn't change the fact that it got cancelled far quickier than SONIC THE COMIC.

Not a fair comparison, as Ken pointed out. Had Fleetway produced a Knuckles the Comic and it lasted longer than the Archie Knuckles the Echidna series you may have a case. The fact of the matter is that Archie Sonic the Hedgehog has produced far more issues (230 issues plus various spin-offs, specials and super specials) and lasted significantly longer (1992-present) than Fleetway's Sonic the Comic, which produced 184 original issues and 39 reprints and lasted from 1993-2002 (its issues were released more frequently). More to the point: featured within the pages of Archie Sonic the Hedgehog are a number of Ken's plots and characters which no doubt have contributed to the longevity and overall success of the series, including (but not limited to) the extended echidna cast and the various plot points revolving around their civilization.

Lammy wrote:Of course, now I "don't accept your answers" because I'm a fan of the other series of comic. Totally putting words into my mouth.

I think what Ken was trying to say was that some fans of Sonic the Comic wouldn't argee with his argument that Knuckles needed a supporting cast because there apparently weren't any in that series. It's important to remember however that those Knuckles stories were told within the pages of Sonic the Comic, where Knuckles was a guest star and whose stories appeared sporadically (though he did have some arcs that lasted a number of consecutive issues). When Knuckles is being featured in some small arcs or one-off stories it's a lot easier to tell such stories without building up a large cast around him. This was true for the Archie Sonic the Hedgehog series too, if you look at the early Knuckles stories where it's either just him, or him and the Chaotix.

However, when you have a comic series focusing on Knuckles, and you're trying to build up the history and lore around him and his homeland, it's necessary to expand beyond that, and that includes introducing new characters. Now it's fair game to argue that the creation of new characters didn't necessitate the creation of new echidnas, but that's the route Ken took. It's due to this route that the Archie-Sonic readers got characters like Julie-Su, Dimitri, Lien-Da, Kragok, Remington, Locke, etc. More importantly, many of these characters are fan favourites; the fact that a large part of the online fandom is angry at Ken over this lawsuit thing specifically because they're worried that Archie won't be able to use these characters is a testament to that.

Two notes regarding the game canon. First, the U.S. Sonic 3 instruction manual states "Long ago, an ancient civilization lived on the Floating Island. Before this civilization mysteriously disappeared, it left behind many secrets and mystical powers." Such remarks are incredibly vague and leave enough room for interpretation that Knuckles' kind wasn't extinct, but simply missing. Second, as early as Sonic 3 it seemed pretty clear that Knuckles wasn't the sole resident on the island given the existence of places like Carnival Night Zone. At the very latest by the time of Knuckles Chaotix (1995) it was obvious the island had other inhabitants. So introducing new residents of the Floating Island fits with the game continuity as it existed at that point in time.

Tylinos wrote:Out of everything in this topic, the purposefully over the top sarcasm is what you find facepalmworthy? You so silly, Paul. (Okay, Haunted did go a bit too over the top, but hey.)

And everyone's fan enough for a Picard facepalm. Everyone.

Paul's quite new to the realm of Trek, having just received some exposure to it last year after reading some of the Star Trek comics Ken worked on. Now it is true that the Picard facepalm can be used by anyone. However, a bit more Trek exposure is necessary in order to wield the Picard double-facepalm. :lol:
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Mavrickindigo » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:23 pm

Luger wrote: Second, as early as Sonic 3 it seemed pretty clear that Knuckles wasn't the sole resident on the island given the existence of places like Carnival Night Zone.

I am very close to certain that Carnival Night was built by Robotnik. The man has always had a thing about Amusement Parks.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Antarctic Deity » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:28 pm

Yeah, Carnival Night Zone is clearly there because of Eggman's influence. Angel Island has always been Knuckles and Knuckles alone: all these new people like Dr. Eggman and Sonic meeting him for the first time was a big deal, and part of his character. It's part of why he's so gullible: Knuckles had never learned how to deal with people besides regular thieves trying to steal the Master Emerald. But hell, it's not like there were no characters around, in Sega or even the book. Charmy, Espio, Vector, Mighty and Ray were there. Several of them had their own homes and 'kingdom' to work with, and could be used to make Angel Island more interesting (purely in terms of cast, the fact that none of Sonic 3 & Knuckles' interesting locales ever showed up is just a sin.) You could easily build a supporting cast, an interesting setting, and a layered plot from what's already present.

But instead, we destroy the theme of Knuckles being the last of his kind within three issues. We destroy the Angel Island natural wonder theme (from the first zone to even the picture of it in the background, with majestic mountains and amazing waterfalls) by moving everything important to a city. The Chaotix get shunted off to the side and only one of their homes is visited, once. The Chaos Emerald/Master Emerald is forgotten almost immediately. The only reason Knuckles could be considered a blank slate with nothing to offer was because everything Knuckles ALREADY HAD was completely ignored. It was NOT necessary, which is the entire point behind this and I'm done with that stupid argument.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Luger » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:07 pm

Mavrickindigo wrote:I am very close to certain that Carnival Night was built by Robotnik. The man has always had a thing about Amusement Parks.

From the instruction manual description of Carnival Night Zone:
Night life on the Floating Island is exciting. Bounce and flip your way across this colorful Zone which is filled with anti-gravity platforms. However, beware of many traps that are set along the path.

Doesn't say anything about Robotnik making it, and it sounds more like it's a regular part of the island (note the part I italicized). Unless it's taken to mean "Night life on the Floating Island, after Robotnik showed up, is exciting, since Knuckles can enjoy the carnival rides by himself while simultaneously operating them." Seriously, there's no reason the carnival would exist and continue to operate unless it had people who ran it and people to enjoy it. It also wouldn't reference an exciting night life on the Floating Island if the carnival was a recent Robotnik creation, unused by the island's inhabitants.

More evidence that the Floating Island had other inhabitants comes from the game Knuckles Chaotix. From the U.S. instruction manual:
Tomorrow's the big opening day for Carnival Island, a huge amusement resort with the latest in high-tech rides and games. As guardian of the island, it's Knuckles' job to make sure nothing goes wrong before the grand event.

Again, someone's building a "huge" amusement park. There'd have to be people on the island to both create it and visit it. Also, before you try to argue that the amusement park isn't on, or part of, Angel Island, read the full quote. It clearly states Knuckles is the guardian of the island and his job to protect it. Is he now the guardian of two totally separate islands, one being a simple amusement park? No. The instruction booklet also says that Carnival Island amusement park receives power from the same emerald that powers the Floating Island, and Eggman shows up to steal said emerald to power his own machine. It makes absolutely no sense that Eggman would build Carnival Island, just to steal its power source for something else.

Antarctic Deity wrote:Yeah, Carnival Night Zone is clearly there because of Eggman's influence. Angel Island has always been Knuckles and Knuckles alone: all these new people like Dr. Eggman and Sonic meeting him for the first time was a big deal, and part of his character. It's part of why he's so gullible: Knuckles had never learned how to deal with people besides regular thieves trying to steal the Master Emerald.

Apparently not, as I've just pointed out. Knuckles Chaotix was released the year after Sonic & Knuckles came out. Knuckles wasn't alone for very long. Also, please don't tell me you believe that the entire population of the Floating Island consists of just Knuckles and the Chaotix. Again, in the games the island had two huge amusement parks, and there's no proof that Eggman had involvement in their construction or operations. Knuckles may have been anti-social and not really interacted with many others, but that doesn't mean that the island's population was limited to just Knuckles and the Chaotix.

Furthermore, even had Knuckles been the sole resident on the Floating Island in the games, the comics are a separate continuity, and the creative team took a lot of liberties with it. The fact that the Archie-Sonic series is the longest running comic based on a game franchise proves that strictly adhering to game continuity isn't always the best way to go (actually it's almost never the best way to go, considering the failure of countless other game franchise-inspired comic series who adhered very closely to game continuity and didn't expand much beyond it).

Antarctic Deity wrote:But hell, it's not like there were no characters around, in Sega or even the book. Charmy, Espio, Vector, Mighty and Ray were there. Several of them had their own homes and 'kingdom' to work with, and could be used to make Angel Island more interesting (purely in terms of cast, the fact that none of Sonic 3 & Knuckles' interesting locales ever showed up is just a sin.) You could easily build a supporting cast, an interesting setting, and a layered plot from what's already present.

But instead, we destroy the theme of Knuckles being the last of his kind within three issues. We destroy the Angel Island natural wonder theme (from the first zone to even the picture of it in the background, with majestic mountains and amazing waterfalls) by moving everything important to a city.

I want to address the section I bolded first:
-Sandopolis Zone showed up in Sonic's Friendly Nemesis Knuckles #1-2 and in KtE #19 (it was covered in snow in this latter appearance)
-Marble Garden Zone (referred to as "Marble Zone") appeared in KtE #4 (it's mentioned in a narrative box that's the location)
-Lava Reef Zone showed up in KtE #7
-Hydro City showed up in KtE #32
-Mushroom Hill Zone showed up in the Sonic & Knuckles special and Death Egg Miniseries #2-3 (referred to as "Mushroom Zone" in the former)

I do agree it would have been nice to see more of the S3&K zones and in greater depth, but it's not like we never saw any of them.

As for your other points, I'll also agree that the Chaotix could have received better development. Moreover, a case could be made for a Knuckles comic that featured only Knuckles, the Chaotix, and various villains. But the Archie-Sonic series has always been very diverse from the games. Rather than relying strictly on game material and extrapolating, Ken created a huge amount of original content, which contributed to the expansion of the Archie-Sonic mythos and the commercial success of the series. While not everyone liked the Knuckles the Echidna series or the introduction of numerous echidnas, by and large it seems most of the comics' fans who have been following the book since 1996 or so agree that KtE featured some of the best stories and characters from the Archie-Sonic series. Again, just look at the outcry from fans who are worried these characters won't be able to be used anymore in the series if Ken wins the legal case against Archie. The echidnas have a huge fanbase.

Antarctic Deity wrote:The Chaotix get shunted off to the side and only one of their homes is visited, once. The Chaos Emerald/Master Emerald is forgotten almost immediately. The only reason Knuckles could be considered a blank slate with nothing to offer was because everything Knuckles ALREADY HAD was completely ignored. It was NOT necessary, which is the entire point behind this and I'm done with that stupid argument.

Vector's home was basically seen in KtE #4 (it mentioned he lived on the outskirts of "Marble Zone"), Mighty AND Espio's homes were seen in KtE #7, and Charmy's home and family were seen in KtE #14-15. As for the Chaos Emeralds, they were handled very differently in the comics than they were in the games. However they were still utilized in a number of Knuckles-related stories. They were used heavily in Sonic's Friendly Nemesis Knuckles to explain the origins of the Floating Island, Locke used one in KtE #3, the Master Emerald was created out of Mogul confrontation in KtE #7-9/StH #56, and we saw the Chaos Chamber and the Master Emerald a couple other times throughout KtE. Also, while the emeralds themselves didn't come up that often, chaos energies played a significant role throughout KtE.

Claiming "everything Knuckles already had was completely ignored" is a ridiculous statement. Knuckles was still the guardian of the Floating Island, he still had the Chaotix as his allies, he still operated solo from time to time, he was still very naive early on, a number of the game zones did show up, etc. The only thing that was "ignored" was Knuckles being the last of his species, but even that's not entirely accruate. The echidnas had "mysteriously disappeared", as stated in the Sonic 3 instruction manual, they just happened to come back in the comic series. Again, the Archie-Sonic series has never been closely tied to the game canon, it's always had a lot of original content as well as a mish-mash of stuff from the various Sonic cartoon shows.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Tylinos » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:15 pm

Luger wrote:(Things about Carnival Island)

That's only the US manual. The JP manual gives a completely different story, where the island rose from the sea after Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and Knuckles ran off to investigate it. There was a bit more to it, I think, but I can't check, since the only place I can think of with info on the manual is down due to the blackouts.
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby PaulAgnew » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:59 pm

Luger wrote:However, a bit more Trek exposure is necessary in order to wield the Picard double-facepalm. :lol:


If it helps, I did watch the local broadcast of "The Offspring" about 2 weeks ago. ;)
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Tylinos » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:08 am

Page is back up:
http://info.sonicretro.org/Knuckles%27_ ... _JP_Manual

Knuckles' Chaotix JP Manual wrote:There, Eggman found a small ring engraved with ancient text. Now he knew the island was indeed part of the lost civilization. He also finds another ring identical to the Super Ring on the Floating island. And it turned out to be a very special ring, one used in antiquity before the legendary civilization was lost.

...

"If I uncover the secrets of the special ring, I'll have the secrets to the rings of Sonic and his pesky gang. And I'll have the power to summon the Master Emerald!" With this scheme in mind, Eggman quickly builds a fortress on the island. The resort he has dubbed "Neutrogic High-Zone" is aswirl with Eggman's evil plan.

So, the Super Ring and Carnival Island itself were used by an anicent civilization that no longer exists, and Eggman did build the Neutrogic High-Zone resort.

...Wait, how did we even get on this subject?
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Re: COMING SOON IN 2012

Postby Cheezmatt » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:01 am

You may want to quit while you're ahead Luger. This debate already took place nearly two years ago, albeit in much shorter form. It helpfully predicts how it will end.
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