COMING SOON IN 2012

[Mavrickindigo]

That piece of art you're displaying is akin to blowing up a photograph printed in a magazine to see the dot pattern that produces the image your eye perceives or a painting to examine the brushstrokes. I happened to scan the original line work I illustrated on 2-ply board and colored in Photoshop at 1200 dpi. At 300 dpi, which is normally used for print, you would not see this level of detail, nor do you see this level of detail on the image displayed on my homepage or here on the message board. If anything, one quickly sees how pixelated those images become when blown up to the level you display here.

It's like examining original comic book art and comparing it to the published product. I have pages where you can see not only the white-out or paste-ups where corrections were made, but even traces of the original penciling or impressions left after the pencil is erased.

Bottom line: opinions should be made on what is shown in the finished product, not what can be discovered through a forensic examination

you don't understand. You could be painting the SIstine Chapel here, but I still wouldn't read it if it's just a bunch of Echidnas. Do something original if you don't want all this ire from people! Stop stealing Hogglesnog designs

EDIT: Looks like the blogger responded: here

[Tylinos]

What I'm intrigued about is that you hated the SatAM box art, but liked the non-blown-up Julie-Su art, both pieces that were produced the same way, yet achieved different reactions with you, even though you saw the version you were meant to.

It's all in the final outcome of a picture. While I wouldn't say I truly liked the Julie-Su one, I would say it did at least look alright. Let's look at your older art, for example. A lot of it was produced pretty much in the same or a similiar way as each other, but there would be panels I quite liked and panels I thought looked terrible, even within the same issue.

(EDIT: Oh, hey, timing. Oh wow, I'd almost forgotten about the Ben Hurst interview they linked.)

Whatever I did with echidnas in another dimension was always independent of whatever Sega was doing.

...what

We're talking about the same thing here, right? The Dark Brotherhood?

I could easily point out other influences which predated any Sega influences by a significant chunk of time. You can't copyright an idea, but you can copyright the finished expression of that idea once it's translated onto the printed page.

Right.

HUGE difference here. I actually OWN the copyrights to my work, fully recognized by the U.S. Government, with full standing acknowledged by the Federal Courts.

If that was the case, the copyright case would be over already.

The point is this: a lot of people automatically assume Archie is this good and decent company who does the right thing, never once stopping to think about their actual business practices.

They do? Really? Well, I guess I'm sure some people do, but I personally haven't seen any. At least I don't think I have.

Here you have the example of the company profiting off of the work of specifically-named artists listed in the actual book titles, yet neither artist receives a dime of those profits. That would be like publishers taking the Harry Potter books and collecting them into a BEST OF J.K. ROWLINGS ominibus collection, only to keep all the profits for themselves and give nothing to the author.

...No, it wouldn't, because Rowling owns the copyright to those books. DeCarlo, as unfortunate as it is, doesn't/didn't. (Tenses are kind of hard to work with when the person in question has passed on, but I think you get what I mean.)

[PaulAgnew]

That would be like publishers taking the Harry Potter books and collecting them into a BEST OF J.K. ROWLINGS ominibus collection, only to keep all the profits for themselves and give nothing to the author.

...No, it wouldn't, because Rowling owns the copyright to those books.

Pretty sure Ken was speaking hypothetically. It other words, obviously J.K. Rowling owns the copyright to her work, but what if she didn't?

[Tylinos]

Pretty sure Ken was speaking hypothetically. It other words, obviously J.K. Rowling owns the copyright to her work, but what if she didn't?

In that case, I'd probably think of it the same as I do for DeCarlo; Unfortunate, but legal.

[Mavrickindigo]

I was talking "Anti-Brotherhood" as in "Anti-Sonic" "Anti-Knuckles"

you know, characters Ken Created?

[Sir Bert Leaman]

I've taken the liberty of making some of my larger points bold.

that doesn’t mean you can continue to write in the Sonic universe and expect to publish it.

That depends how one defines the Sonic universe. Let's use my Knuckles stories as the example. While they were published in a title featuring a Sega-licensed character, though they took place primarily on a floating island, which is a setting in the games, the setting itself is not one Sega can own as a basic concept. What they do own are the various zones they establish in the games. Using those game-specific environments would be an infringement on Sega's rights. However, because I was never supplied with all the details of the game, once you get past the broad strokes - Knuckles, Chaotix, Chaos Emerald, Floating Island - there is absolutely nothing else that was based on anything Sega created for the games. All the details, characters, scenarios, etc. that were given life in the series were a product of my creativity.

I notice though you didn’t say anything about the design style of the characters which is a big issue and is very much derived from the SEGA Sonic style.

You’ve repeatedly gone over the fact floating islands and magical rocks are broad ideas. I am familiar with that; I get it, I honestly do. You’ve made some vague suggestions that the terms “Angel Island” and “Chaos Emerald” won’t come up or will be renamed, but you’ve neglected to commit to either idea. If your intent is to just side-step that stuff, not just in your replies to us but also in your stories, I wish you’d be clear and say that.

I’m not sure how thoroughly you read my last post so let me be clear: I was saying that the abundance of similar ideas, even if renamed or somehow altered, can still constitute infringement. If you intend to just ignore all of those things that make the Sonic universe what it is, fine, give it a whirl and see what happens. If you intend to use a red anthropomorphic echidna who can fly/glide, has hard nubs on his fists that he uses for punching and is the guardian of a magical object and the island said object keeps aloft but totally isn’t Knuckles, you might have to think again.

Your characters, however, were written for a licensed comic. That doesn’t change that you should be credited, but you cannot use Mobius, Sonic and co, Agel Island, Chaos Emeralds or Magic Rings among other things.

Where have I said I'm using Sonic, Mobius, Angel Island, Chaos Emeralds or Magic Rings? Just because my Knuckles characters, concepts and stories were used in a licensed comic doesn't mean Archie and/or Sega automatically owns anything and everything I created. They need a written contract where I assign them my rights. Absent that, all they have is the right to print the story one time. That's it.

You HAVEN’T said either way, and that was my point. These characters were created for a world that contains more than just what you added to it. My concern was over how you intend to approach characters that were made to work in a certain context and will lack that context if you try to use them on your own.

If you look at any other comic book work I ever did for any company, I received a contract which spelled out what the work I was doing for each and every issue on a separate basis in great detail. I would receive x amount of dollars per page for a total of x amount of pages. In addition, I was offered royalties spelled out in a variety of scenarios, including if my work was licensed or used by a third party. None of this occurred in my dealings with Archie.

I am familiar with how it works. I also wasn’t trying to bring up anything about your contracts with Archie. I just wanted to know how you plan to get around the things you didn’t create.

While this next part may sound egotistical, it's really not, but it is a part of the equation most don't take into consideration. One of the arguments people put forth is that the value of my material is derived because of its association with the Sega source material, but that totally ignores the flip side of the coin, in that it's my material which has provided value to the Sega source material, which in this case we're speaking primarily of KNUCKLES.

I didn’t bring up anything in this regard but while we’re on the subject, I personally feel your characters and stories would lose quite a bit without the attachment to SEGA. Regardless of how you feel about it, if I, the consumer, feel something has been lost and I am dissatisfied with the new work, I simply won’t buy it.

Outside of SONIC, no comic book based on a video game has lasted more than a few issues. Had I taken the approach many others did with other properties or kept to the format Mike Gallagher established, it's a pretty safe bet the title would not have lasted as long as it has. That's not ego, but an opinion rendered based on historical fact of how the comics industry worked back in the day. The Nintendo titles published by Valiant were based on video games that were the highest sellers of their day, yet they flamed out spectacularly when readers felt the comics added nothing extra to the game experience or understanding of the respective universe.

Again, this wasn’t anything I don’t already know nor was it something I brought up. You don’t need to continually fight for credit when replying to me because I’ve already acknowledged that the work you did on Sonic helped give it the oomph it needed to remain a viable comic property even to this day. You, however, didn’t do it alone and it has been carried on for years without you.

You did a bunch of work on the book and as such the work that’s being done now is built on top of your contributions. Pull those out and the entire book would need restructuring to the point it could potentially get a reboot.

Which makes my argument for me. Either my work was important enough to the book that it's removal would warrant a complete makeover for the series or else my work was inconsequential to the point where no one would notice it's absence. There is no middle ground. Thus even you admit the removal of my work would have serious consequences.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the work and everything to do with you setting ground work for people who followed in your footsteps. You worked on the book for a decade or so. You can’t just remove a decade of the book’s history without the book changing drastically or anyone not noticing. It would necessitate a massive restructuring of the book even if none of your contributions were actively being used in the book today.

Consumers today don’t care about what you did, they care about what you’re doing. That’s not to devalue the work you did in the past but rather say that it may be received differently in today’s market. I don’t know about everyone who posts here but I was reading the book when your work on it was new, starting on issue 11. I was about 8 at the time. What I liked or would read then isn’t the same as the stuff I’d like now. I still read the comic today because of nostalgia and because the book as continued to grow, evolve and get better but if it was the same as it was back when I started reading it, I doubt I would be very interested.

Now though, you’re not arguing that your work has value, just that the book’s value would be less without it. What you contributed has grown and evolved with the book under other writers and I wouldn’t want it to go back to what it used to be. If you were to pull your work out of the book and just use it by itself, I’m not sure I’d want to read it. Of course, I’d need to see a sample before making that sort of a decision. What I’m trying to say is that their place within the book has given your characters added value just as they have added value back to the book and neither would be worth as much separately.

What other writers added is not important nor have I ever implied what they added would remain in my version. Clearly, whether this was corporate edict or a decision on any writer's part, the Knuckles material was treated cavalierly and basically tossed overboard, keeping only what Archie/Ian/whomever wanted for whatever commercial purposes they deemed worthwhile where the bottom-line profits were concerned.

What anyone else added to your characters certainly wouldn’t be reflected in your own vision. I also wouldn’t assume you’d take into account any of the changes after you left. It’s the entirety of the world the books inhabit that I’m curious about. The characters you made existed in that world and for you to continue that work, you’d have to ditch that world and replace it with your own in some way or ignore it altogether.

Absent a contract which would include me receiving some form of royalty payment, neither Sega, Archie or the writers have the right to make use of my characters, concepts or stories even in new works. For Ian to announce he's going to feature the "Anti-Brotherhood" shows he doesn't respect creator rights either, even though neither he, Archie or Sega has the right to use these characters.

The book thus far has not changed. It is a conglomeration of all the efforts of writers past and present. That is the very nature of comics such as this one. Regardless of any legal business that has yet to be sorted out, the book is, for now, intact and until such a time as these trials are resolved, it’s all fair game. If Ian wants to make an Anti-Brotherhood, for the time being there’s nothing other than one of the higher-ups rejecting the idea that would stop him. For the record though, he didn’t announce that he would be featuring them, he just said he had ideas.

To put matters completely in perspective with who I'm dealing with here, Archie has authorized the sale of the hardcover editions "THE BEST OF DAN DeCARLO" and "THE BEST OF STAN GOLDBERG", featuring work both men did exclusively for Archie Comics. You would think that the artists would be receiving a share of the proceeds from the sales of books featuring their names, and you would be 100% wrong. Neither the estate of Dan DeCarlo or Stan Goldberg (who's very much alive and doing well) is receiving a dime from the sale of these books. And this is only the tip of the iceberg of the creators that are not receiving what is due them from the company.

Are you trying to make Archie out to be some monster or something? Yeah, that sucks, I feel for them, but I don’t buy the comics out of brand loyalty to Archie. I buy the comics because I enjoy the comics. Most companies are terrible and will pull underhanded moves if it means more money. I’m sorry Ken, I know business practices like this can be brutal and unfair, but it is the nature of the industry and the world we live in.

Right now Sega is also profiting from the sale of my work while I and the other Sonic creators who have no signed agreements with Archie or Sega receive absolutely nothing. With that in mind, I find it hard to see things from your perspective.

Ken, dude, my perspective was that you should be paid for reprints. I seriously feel like you didn’t actually read my post, instead picking out little pieces to spin and make yourself seem more pitiable or in the right. I seriously hope that’s not the case and maybe we’re just having some issue communicating.

...That is unless you're referring to how SEGA and Archie continue to use your characters as is typical to comic books in which case I feel they should be able to continue doing so. You don't need to bring up contracts and who signed what. Frankly, you say you didn't sign anything, they say you did and it's not my place to make a judgement call there. All I know is it's common practice for characters and concepts to remain with the book, not the writer, and and I don't want to see the current comic destroyed over all this, though I still think you should get paid for reprints.

[Antarctic Deity]

Sir Bert, he does it with everyone's posts. Consider it lucky that a fraction of his reply actually pertained to the questions and arguments you were bringing up.

If my stories weren't good with readers responding to them in a positive manner, either the book wouldn't have sold

Sonic the Hedgehog. You say the current writing's crap (and you have), but it's been lasting what, five years without you (and Bollers and Gallagher?) That's pretty damning evidence against quality writing being necessary to keep it going if we go by your statements.

or I wouldn't have lasted as long

Justin Gabrie and seniority.

You can't copyright an idea

Right, like echidnas living in another dimension.

HUGE difference here. I actually OWN the copyrights to my work

Not according to Archie. They're his bosses, not you. It's good to see you care for Ian despite having no problem slandering him whenever given opportunity though. It must be difficult. Also, he said he had an idea for them. That's it. THE SCANDAL.

[jameygamer]

@jameygamer:

So, what happens with your case with Archie if this little CEO feud between Goldwater and Silberkleit causes the publisher to cave in on itself? What does that do to the Sonic comic, your claims to the characters in it, and Sega's license?

Should Goldwater v Silberkleit or Silberkleit v Goldwater result in the dissolution of the company, at the very least I expect to come out with a clear claim to my copyrights. With regards to the Sonic comic itself, I would anticipate most if not all creators who worked on the book asserting their ownership to the material they created, and I would anticipate the chance to continue the book with Sega under better terms than they currently have with Archie. Seriously.[/quote]

Okay, Ken, I am going to say this. If, for some odd reason, Sega does approach you to continue with the comic if Archie falls, I am very sure there will be a special condition. If you want my opinion, the condition I would find the most interesting is that you will need to work with Ian on the comics. Now, someone I know made a comparision of the writing of the British Sonic comic to the American, and he specifically stated that the best storylines of the British Sonic the Comic were like taking stories from you AND Ian Flynn and mixing writing elements.

Still, that is a possible condition for another work agreement. I don't see Sega leaving Ian out in the cold, but I could be wrong. But this would be a possible condition if Sega does approach you.

So, I have to know: Is it possible for you to work with Ian Flynn on the comics if that situation occurs? This is a pretty big question, so think about it. To be honest, if you two can work together, it would be a good duo of writers.

[Mavrickindigo]

So, I have to know: Is it possible for you to work with Ian Flynn on the comics if that situation occurs? This is a pretty big question, so think about it. To be honest, if you two can work together, it would be a good duo of writers.

That would actually be pretty cool. Ken's always been the great Ideas man, Ian is awesome with playing with the toys other people set up.

[Tylinos]

A team-up between Ian and Ken would have the potential to be pretty amazing.

[Mavrickindigo]

Art tumblr guy is saying people on this forum are lying about him. His evidence is compelling http://amomentofarchiesonic.tumblr.com/ ... austed-now

[Luger]

I love how a number of people are making a big deal over the super-huge resolution image. A.) It's not the final product. B.) It wasn't even supposed to be released to the public (someone obviously found it in an obscure website directory which was not meant for public access). The actual official promo picture of Julie-Su looks just fine. Even IF we assume that the promo picture is simply the "F1" version shrunk down, the fact is the imperfections are done at the new resolution, which is what it's intended to be viewed at. If you're going to criticize the art, criticize the official released art.

Honestly, the promo pictures aren't as bad as people are making them out to be. The only things that stand out to me are the following:
-Lara-Su has a bit of a stiff pose, and her hair stands out a bit
-Julie-Su's mouth looks a little bit weird
-Lien-Da's uniform colour needs to be changed, and she's missing the traditional 'peach' tone muzzle (present on both Lara-Su and Julie-Su)

Aside from those things I have no problem with the new artwork. The characters have new looks which are intended to fit with a new visual style that Ken's using for the graphic novels, while retaining their basic characteristics. I have no problems with that.

[Tylinos]

My problem with his current art style is that it almost always looks like poorly done fan-art, and is usually nowhere near the quality of some of his other art. Ken can draw well, but I haven't seen anything new from him I've liked in seven years. (The M25YL story in #143)

[Luger]

How the art looks in the promos might not be what we see in the finish version. Ken mentioned on the previous page he's trying out different things:

I'm currently in a state of experimentation due to the new formats opening up for material. I'm trying to figure out what allows me to produce material in a manner that's time efficient yet versatile to allow for portability to various formats. The character designs are part of that experimentation.

We might see an entirely new approach later on. We'll have to wait and see.

[Mavrickindigo]

-Lien-Da's uniform colour needs to be changed, and she's missing the traditional 'peach' tone muzzle (present on both Lara-Su and Julie-Su)

"Traditional" you say? I thought Ken as doing something unique and totally different in this, and not ripping off SEGA.

[PaulAgnew]

If you intend to use a red anthropomorphic echidna who can fly/glide, has hard nubs on his fists that he uses for punching and is the guardian of a magical object and the island said object keeps aloft but totally isn’t Knuckles, you might have to think again.

What red anthropomorphic Echidna? Pink and brown all the way.

[Mavrickindigo]

well then

[PaulAgnew]

well then

Admittingly, I'll give Archie this; they're consistent.

[Tylinos]

{Things from a few days ago about respecting creator rights}

Now, I'm not sure what the original quote source on this is, but over at Retro someone posted a quote they saw on another site regarding the whole respecting creator rights thing:

So, did Ken Penders ask Ben Hurst and Len Janson for their permission or insight in, say, deciding Rotor was gay? Or trying to kill Sally, or roboticizing and "killing off" Lupe (and making her married with kids, and Hispanic)? Did he care that Karl Bollers had written Mina as deciding against joining the Freedom Fighters when he kept writing her as part of the team? Never mind all the crazy stuff done to the SEGA cast. How does that fall under "respecting the creators' rights?"

[Ken Penders]

So, did Ken Penders ask Ben Hurst and Len Janson for their permission or insight in, say, deciding Rotor was gay? Or trying to kill Sally, or roboticizing and "killing off" Lupe (and making her married with kids, and Hispanic)? Did he care that Karl Bollers had written Mina as deciding against joining the Freedom Fighters when he kept writing her as part of the team? Never mind all the crazy stuff done to the SEGA cast. How does that fall under "respecting the creators' rights?"

Ben Hurst is not a topic I take lightly, mainly due to the fact that no matter what I say about my relationship with him, there are more than a few Sonic fans ready to call me a liar or say I'm being disrespectful towards the man, especially now after his passing.

For the record, and this will be the only time I address this, Ben Hurst and I initially met up at the San Diego Comic-Con one time back during the 90's, around the time SONIC UNDERGROUND had finished production. It was a cordial meet & greet, nothing more. Later, we had a phone conversation, and Ben expressed interest in writing for the Sonic comic, complimenting me on how I had carried the torch (his words) when neither Sega or anyone else was really doing much with the character. As Archie was publishing the SONIC SUPER SPECIAL series at the time, I thought it would be a great idea for Ben to write where he would have taken the series. He suggested that if he did do the story, he'd want to take what he planned and fit it into the series' continuity. So I contacted Justin Gabrie, and told him about Ben's interest. When Ben found out what Archie paid per page for script was nowhere near what he was paid for the scripts he did for the Sonic animated series he worked on, he decided to pass. (Which was sad, because Art Mawhinney would have been assigned to illustrate that particular script.)

This led in turn to Ben and I discussing doing a Sonic animated project with a Hollywood studio. Since I didn't know anyone in Hollywood at the time, I thought it only right he take the reins to pitch the project. What I discovered was that Ben thought Sega would be willing to fund such a project. Even then, with my lack of any Hollywood experience, I knew that approach would be a non-starter, and I was never able to shake Ben's belief that Sega would be willing to pay us to do the project. Consequently, when I was approached by noted animation producer/director Larry Houston - who was responsible for guiding FOX-TV's X-MEN series during its first five seasons - about working on a Sonic project, this led to a misunderstanding with Ben.

Ben understandably wanted to be paid for whatever work he did, but the problem was he didn't seem to be aware how the animation industry was evolving at the time, which forced a number of writers and artists who once had steady work to either settle for much less or get out of the business altogether. I totally lacked the knowledge and experience at the time to actually get a full blown project off the ground, so I'm not sure even now there was anything I could have done back then to move anything forward with regards to the project.

So short answer: Ben said he was happy with what I was doing moving the series forward, but we could never get our act together regarding collaborating on any future project.

It's one of those things I'll always have regrets over.

ONTO ANOTHER TOPIC:

Regarding certain questions people have asked and tried to get an answer from me, if I haven't answered the question, now is not the time I'm going to answer it. You're simply going to have to wait until the time is right to respond. If I do respond to a question, it's because I'm comfortable doing so depending on the topic at hand. Thanks for your patience and understanding in advance.

[Tylinos]

For the record, and this will be the only time I address this, Ben Hurst and I initially met up at the San Diego Comic-Con one time back during the 90's, around the time SONIC UNDERGROUND had finished production. It was a cordial meet & greet, nothing more. Later, we had a phone conversation, and Ben expressed interest in writing for the Sonic comic, complimenting me on how I had carried the torch (his words) when neither Sega or anyone else was really doing much with the character.

...

So short answer: Ben said he was happy with what I was doing moving the series forward, but we could never get our act together regarding collaborating on any future project.

Just for the record: Ken [Penders of Archie comics] has often said (paraphrasing here) that "Ben Hurst says the torch has been passed to me for Sonic the Hedgehog" - usually expressed in a way to make it appear that I passed the torch to him. Not true. I was just trying to be nice. What I said was that since the comic was ongoing and the animated series was over, the torch had been passed [by default] to him. I was just trying to prevent a flurry of inquiries from fans pitting his opinion against mine on how the Sonic Universe should be sculpted after SatAm ended. The way he has expressed it in the past seems to convey the impression that he has my approval of his work. He doesn't. I've not read a single comic.

[Ken Penders]

@Tylinos:

This is why I don't discuss Ben Hurst. I was not aware of that quote, only the abuse I took from several fans who asked me for my side of the story. No matter what I say, there will always be someone to counter anything I say on the subject. Since the man is dead, nothing I say will sound anything but self-serving, so give it a rest. There's nothing to be gained from this discussion.

[Antarctic Deity]

You just discussed him for a page, and it seems you weren't very accurate in doing so anyway.

[Tylinos]

...Why were we on the subject of Ben Hurst to begin with, anyway?

[Ken Penders]

@Antarctic Diety:

You just discussed him for a page, and it seems you weren't very accurate in doing so anyway.

There's Ben's version and my version of what happened back in the day, and no one else was in the room or on the phone when it happened. You aren't exactly what I would consider a neutral party or someone with first-hand knowledge in this instance to state with any authority about my accuracy of events.

@Tylinos:

We got on the subject because you brought him up. Nothing further need be said.