In Answer To Numerous Requests

Ken wrote Sonic and Knuckles as published by Archie Comics for over 13 years. So anything Sonic and Knuckles goes here!

In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Ken Penders » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:50 am

As I was going through my files the other day, I came across something that many have asked me about, but have yet to publicly reveal... until now. Only a select few have seen what I'm about to reveal here -- namely, the synopsis of the stories I planned leading to SONIC #175 and eventually SONIC #200. The following list was submitted to Mike Pellerito at his request while I was writing the Shadow storyline that saw print in issues #157 through #159.

Without further ado, I present to you what might have been...

SONIC: LINE OF SUCCESSION PTS I & II (SONIC #155 & #156)

SONIC: SYSTEM SHUTDOWN/RECONFIGURATION/REBOOT (SONIC #157, #158 & #159)

SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS... (SONIC #160 & #161) - King Sonic discovers he’s returned to the scene of one of his greatest battles and possibly the cause of his problems in the future. The problem is that no one can see or hear him, and any attempt to take action results in someone suspecting a supernatural cause. When he returns to the future, he discovers a changed world on top of having failed to change events in the past. As a last resort, Rotor sends Nicole into the past after having created her.

SONIC: LAST TANGO IN KNOTHOLE (SONIC #162) - Uncle Chuck and Rosie emerge on the town for a real date, and it’s up to Sonic to play guardian angel and prevent Robotnik’s stealth-bots from spoiling the happy couple’s evening. (16 pages)

SONIC: GIRLS NIGHT OUT (SONIC #163) - Some teasing from Ash results in Mina and Amy Rose making their way into Robotnik’s stronghold to prove they’re just as capable on their own as any Freedom Fighter (re: Sonic). When Sally hears what they’re up to, she and Sonic head out after them, only to discover Rouge and Nic the Weasel are on the scene, each looking to abscond with the rare gem that will power Robotnik’s latest weapon. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: THIS ROBIAN, THIS HEDGEHOG (SONIC #164) - When Sonic overhears how much his father resents his condition, unable to enjoy a “normal” life with his wife, Sonic risks all to find a cure. With the aid of his Uncle Chuck, Sonic makes his way into the Robotnik’s nano-tech labs and retrieves what he hopes is the answer to the problem. Unfortunately, Jules is still a Robian at the end, but thanks to nano-technology, he now looks more like his old self. (16 pages)

SONIC: LAST MAN STANDING (SONIC #165) - Antoine pops THE question to Bunnie. Unfortunately, she’s not able to respond before the gang has to go off on a mission to shut down Robotnik’s power plant before a meltdown in the core. While Sonic does all he can to ensure a safe ending for all, circumstances dictate a sacrifice on someone’s part, and Snively ends up proving he had more moxie than anyone ever gave him credit for. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: FALL-OUT (SONIC #166) Sonic is racked with grief, feeling responsible for the death of Snively, and drives everyone that much harder when preparing for their next mission. As their assignment unfolds, everyone becomes uneasy as the possibility dawns that Sonic could cross a line he never did before. For the Freedom Fighters, this moral quandary becomes even more difficult when it’s discovered the enemy’s latest plan could result in the extinction of every lifeform on Mobius.

SONIC: NEW WORLD ORDER (SONIC #167) - Sonic finally is informed of the duties of his new rank: Gentleman-At-Arms. His first task: accompany Princess Sally to Station Square as she sets up Knothole’s first embassy in a foreign land. Naturally, there’s some trouble before the group departs, including Sally’s displeasure when Sonic’s new rank means he can overrule her when it comes to security, as Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)

SONIC: OUR HEDGEHOG IN STATION SQUARE (SONIC #168) - Now that Princess Sally, Sonic, Tails and Rotor have arrived in Station Square for the duration, Sonic finds getting around town is more awkward than he likes, thanks to Evil Sonic making the scene. But if Sonic can’t provoke his bad doppelganger into a fight one way, perhaps scoring with Rouge might do the trick. Now if only Sally doesn’t get into the act. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11 or 16-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: A DISH BEST SERVED COLD (SONIC #169 & #170) - Knuckles and the Chaotix show up at Station Square, mean and spoiling for a fight with the group that attempted to invade Angel Island. Unfortunately, with the new alliance pact in place between Knothole and Station Square, that puts Sonic on a collision course with the embattled echidna. (2 16-page stories)

The idea was to tease whether or not Bunnie would accept based on the premise that she wasn't sure her and Antoine could lead a normal life due to her bionic parts. Eventually, events in SONIC #175 would have resulted in her saying yes to their engagement, leading to a spectacular wedding in #200.

Along the way, we would have explored the Sonic-Sally relationship in greater depth as I would be steering to get those two together after several trials and tribulations in which neither was sure what they themselves or the other really wanted.

When I resumed writing SONIC as a main feature with issue #145, I made it clear I was aiming to correct the fiasco Karl foisted upon fandom with the infamous slap. Both Mike and I were determined to correct what mainly perceived at the time as the worst moment in the book's history. However, neither of us saw that getting corrected over the course of an issue or two or three. Rather, it was decided that Sonic would play the field for awhile, allowing him to discover exactly why Sally was always the girl for him.

One of the things that made it difficult during my resumption of being the head writer was that in some ways it was accidental. Initially, I was going to submit whatever stories struck my fancy and spend the rest of my time working on other projects. So I wrote the stories published in SONIC #150 and 151 first, then was asked to begin writing what eventually became "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN" Part 1. Karl and I were supposed to alternate each successive chapter, but that plan went out the window when he and Mike couldn't work things out. Somewhere during the writing of issues #146 through #149, Mike decided he wanted stories to lead into the saga, which then resulted in me writing what eventually became SONIC #145. After finishing "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN", I recall then writing "LINE OF SUCCESSION" Parts 1 & 2, upon which I was then asked to write what eventually saw print in SONIC #152.

What was really funny was reading Dan Drazen's reviews at the time, because he hadn't a clue what turmoil was going on behind the scenes trying to get the book out. As I always had a policy of saying nothing in defense when a paying customer criticized my work, I just shook my head and sighed. No one knew about the rewrites that were demanded, often which made no sense, nor did I get paid for. Nor the changes to story length and format that changed at a moment's notice. What made it even funnier was that while Dan was slamming the book, sales were going up and people paid attention I was in charge of the storylines again, much to the majority of the audience's approval.

The way I saw it, I was going to have fun writing what I did. It showed, and the audience responded. The only part I saw where I would have to tread darkly is the fall of Snively. Mike had wanted me to set him up for the audience to embrace him as they never did before, only to kill him off to rattle everyone, announcing to everyone not to take the book for granted as one would never know what to expect after that.

So now that I set things up and presented the road map, feel free to comment.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby BobR » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:32 am

PaulAgnew wrote:Though I must ask about the M25YL conclusion. Does the moment of Rotor sending NICOLE back in time represent a homage, or confirm that, M25YL is the same reality as the future seen in STH#19, 22, and the 'In Your Face' special?

I can answer that one...yes, Ken always worked from the premise what you saw in those issues was the future of Sonic and Mobius. This wasn't always easy to carry out, as different authors took different tacts when writing their storyline (and I'm including Ken in that statement. ;) ) One of the things I did for Ken was to create a timeline trying to integrate all of the past history shown in the comic, including Karl's lock-in that Mobius was a future earth. (Something Ken and I never really thought, as we looked upon Mobius as more a parallel earth.) But once Karl wrote that Mobius was earth (much to our chagrin), we had to work with that and integrate it into the story in a way that made the most sense. Then the question became, how do we integrate those earlier views into past and future history in a way that made sense? For example, Wooly Mammoths died out 30,000 years ago our time, yet we had Mammoth Mogul to explain. That his "extended" life was due to Chaos energy is given, but the Chaos emeralds didn't show up on earth until after the Mobians started their evolutionary process. So where did a mammoth come from? See, these are the inconsistencies that made the book interesting. :roll:
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Mavrickindigo » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:16 am

Ken Penders wrote:SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS... (SONIC #160 & #161)

Good to see there was actually a plan to end this storyline. The way it actually happened in the book had it seem to be just a plothole. Though I have to wonder, how did sending Nicole in the past save the future if this event has already happened, and Sally already had Nicole to begin with?

SONIC: LAST TANGO IN KNOTHOLE (SONIC #162)

Uncle Chuck gets the spotlight for once, very nice.

SONIC: GIRLS NIGHT OUT (SONIC #163)

I thought Mina's story arc ended with her realizing she wasn't cut out to be a freedom fighter and instead she wanted to find her own talents (which she did).

SONIC: THIS ROBIAN, THIS HEDGEHOG (SONIC #164)

I don't know about this...it would be nice for Jules, but the readers would be out one cool robot dad. Unless he developed some T-1000 superpowers or something, it would take away from what he provides to the story

SONIC: LAST MAN STANDING (SONIC #165)

Not sure what I feel about this one, personally. I quite enjoyed his return to evil in the actual book. But I also thought it was interesting that he worked against Eggman in your run. To have the comic be Snively-less...that's something I could never see. It would be interesting, especially to go out on a heroic note.

SONIC: FALL-OUT (SONIC #166)
How mysterious-sounding.

SONIC: NEW WORLD ORDER (SONIC #167)
Odd conflicts, but a return to Station Square. I like that part.


SONIC: OUR HEDGEHOG IN STATION SQUARE (SONIC #168)
Sounds like the same tired plot as before. Evil Sonic was an interesting character, but it was the same song over and over and over again, and this issue seems no different.

SONIC: A DISH BEST SERVED COLD (SONIC #169 & #170)
I think another Sonic & Knuckles fight written by you would be fun.

The idea was to tease whether or not Bunnie would accept based on the premise that she wasn't sure her and Antoine could lead a normal life due to her bionic parts. Eventually, events in SONIC #175 would have resulted in her saying yes to their engagement, leading to a spectacular wedding in #200.

Didn't we already establish that Antoine didn't care that he couldn't have a normal relationship with her back in the "Girls Rule" super special?

Along the way, we would have explored the Sonic-Sally relationship in greater depth as I would be steering to get those two together after several trials and tribulations in which neither was sure what they themselves or the other really wanted.

The SEGA mandates would have probably ruined this plan.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Maren » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:38 pm

I thought Mina's story arc ended with her realizing she wasn't cut out to be a freedom fighter and instead she wanted to find her own talents (which she did).



Better whip this image out again....



Image



Like I said in the last Mina topic, in Ken's defense, the reasons for her quitting were because she didn't think her reasons for joining were good enough, not because she felt she didn't have any abilities to contribute to the team. Her music career and the risks she's taken to ensure the happiness of her people (risking her life performing onstage in "Songoose"), have however displayed that Mina's character ascended beyond this reasoning over the past year, and thus, no longer applied anymore.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby The_Patman » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:44 pm

This is actually the first I have seen of these synopses. Wow! What a way to kick off Sonic's 19th Anniversary today, am I right guys?
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Miko » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:17 pm

This is actually the first I have seen of theses synopses. Wow! What a way to kick off Sonic's 19th Anniversary today, am I right guys?


Wow Sonic is nearly 20 years old. Makes me feel old :|

SONIC: LAST TANGO IN KNOTHOLE (SONIC #162) - Uncle Chuck and Rosie emerge on the town for a real date, and it’s up to Sonic to play guardian angel and prevent Robotnik’s stealth-bots from spoiling the happy couple’s evening. (16 pages)



I was wondering whatever happened to that plot point. Ever since Love and Loss that story between the two has sort of been left dangling.

SONIC: GIRLS NIGHT OUT (SONIC #163) - Some teasing from Ash results in Mina and Amy Rose making their way into Robotnik’s stronghold to prove they’re just as capable on their own as any Freedom Fighter (re: Sonic). When Sally hears what they’re up to, she and Sonic head out after them, only to discover Rouge and Nic the Weasel are on the scene, each looking to abscond with the rare gem that will power Robotnik’s latest weapon. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)


I would've liked this story. In your Hero to Zero story, I felt the groundwork being made to expand on these two characters. One of the problems I had with Karl was that, when it came to Mina in general he had a difficulty allowing her to branch out as a character. For one thing, when it came to characterizing her, he'd go onto one tangent with the characterization and when it proved too inconvenient, he leapt to another. He started out ok in the beginning, allowing Mina to be the kind of person to help Sonic's thefts with little knowledge of the context because of the fact she thought stealing was ok if for a good cause. Back then, I thought that this sort of attitude would later explain her reasons for chasing after Sonic among giving her leverage for other stories. After all, Karl's story changes has Mina in the audience where Sonic is receiving affections from princess Sally. But for some reason she's emotionally devestated at the idea of Sonic liking Sally in 123. She behaves as though it's an idea she's never been forced to consider before.

The character conveniently forgets things, possibly to make ending the triangle easier. She is was in many ways, the Fiona Fox of Ian's run, but to Karl's writing. Karl initially wrote her as having liked only warmed up to Sonic upon seeing his tender moment with family, and when his harsh attitude was to express his confidence in her being a freedom fighter. Suddenly she forgets this too and only likes him for being "hip happenin' and oh so cool." Several interesting ideas such as her insistence to work as a team, and her shaky sense of confidence remain, but I think his inability to remain consistent in many aspects to the initial tangent he had built, was probably one of the reasons for her the reputation of being a plot device and not a character. Because as we're seeing with some of the stars like Sally or even Fiona today, a development in the plot has superceeded the need for consistent and strong characterization.

To me, this would've been a step in the right direction for both characters. I liked the idea that, Mina and Amy became friends in Hero to Zero. I wish it would've been expanded on further but that didn't and still hasn't happened yet. The two of them have been around for years, and neither has been written to have a strong relationship with any of the other characters--no real friends in Knothole. Oh, yes they have a connection with Sonic and get along with like the FFs, but Amy doesn't really have what for example Sally has in friends like Bunnie and neither does Mina at this point. I would've liked to have seen a story involving this duo and their progression to becoming Freedom Fighters as well as buddies. Amy still isn't written to have much respect in the FFs. Ian routinely writes her as a "punishment" for Sonic. Sicing Amy on Sonic during Bunnie's wedding or proclaiming that he's being punished by being ordered by Sally to go on a mission with her (even though Amy acted fairly well on the mission, and it was mostly Sonic's prejudice towards her).

SONIC: NEW WORLD ORDER (SONIC #167) - Sonic finally is informed of the duties of his new rank: Gentleman-At-Arms. His first task: accompany Princess Sally to Station Square as she sets up Knothole’s first embassy in a foreign land. Naturally, there’s some trouble before the group departs, including Sally’s displeasure when Sonic’s new rank means he can overrule her when it comes to security, as Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)


Haha had plans to finally get Sonic to stop answering to Sally? I think I've seen in your previous discussions with fans (and I mean years back) mention of an issue with Sonic having to answer to Sally or a kingdom anyway. I'd have to look into it.

SONIC: LAST MAN STANDING (SONIC #165) - Antoine pops THE question to Bunnie. Unfortunately, she’s not able to respond before the gang has to go off on a mission to shut down Robotnik’s power plant before a meltdown in the core. While Sonic does all he can to ensure a safe ending for all, circumstances dictate a sacrifice on someone’s part, and Snively ends up proving he had more moxie than anyone ever gave him credit for. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)


I'll give you credit, that it certainly has more build up than Bunnie simply being asked and her saying "yes" and would've added some suspense if you will. To me though, it doesn't seem as though the reasons Bunnie and Antoine have been dating one another is explored--nor if either would wind up thinking that's good enough in the end. Bunnie's been dating Ant, because she needs someone to see her as attractive. You yourself have written Bunnie's biggest insecurity as she mentions during her discussion with Scourge, that she wouldn't be seen as attractive. Before any decisions of marriage were put on the table, I'd have liked the character to at least contemplate this. Perhaps I would've in addition to that liked her to have realized the full extent of what she did. In her desperation, she was about to go after someone her best friend had been emotionally broken over for an entire year.


Along the way, we would have explored the Sonic-Sally relationship in greater depth as I would be steering to get those two together after several trials and tribulations in which neither was sure what they themselves or the other really wanted.

When I resumed writing SONIC as a main feature with issue #145, I made it clear I was aiming to correct the fiasco Karl foisted upon fandom with the infamous slap. Both Mike and I were determined to correct what mainly perceived at the time as the worst moment in the book's history. However, neither of us saw that getting corrected over the course of an issue or two or three. Rather, it was decided that Sonic would play the field for awhile, allowing him to discover exactly why Sally was always the girl for him.


So Mike's been on this "Team Sonic/Sally" parade too? Lord help us. I don't have an issue with people liking the pairing, but if you've been reading the comic, it's gone way too far these days. And by too far I mean needlessly mucking up things like Sonic and Tails' relationship just to get these two closer. Tails' was already Sonic's surrogate brother, and that was in my mind a good thing. I never liked the idea of the FFs finding their parents, but at least Tails could live comfortably among the hedgehog family as a brotherly figure, to give us on some level the atmosphere that had been lost when Sally, Rotor, and Antoine all started focusing on family life with their biological relatives. But now Tails' parents are back and they didn't do crap except make a revolution, and create a republic. So the surrogate family made for Tails is gone and what function does bringing them to usher in a more complicated government have except to further the agenda of getting Sally onto the field with Sonic?

I think yeah, Sonic should play the field (mostly with Amy, Mina and Sally), but out of general indecisiveness, and that each girl has something about them Sonic likes that he has yet to value over the other. Not because Sonic and Sally encompass this all knowing OTP. I agree with Mavrick, it wouldn't have worked out with SEGA at the helm. And even way back in the day, you used to say SEGA didn't want Sonic to have a girlfriend. Why would now have been any different? I think at this point we would've possibly wound up with Pete/Gwen syndrome, exauhsting every obstacle that helps keeps in place a mandate SEGA has seemed to want for years and eventually getting to a point where you can't realistically keep it up. Though I think Ian's probably trying to get around it by making Sally a "de facto" love interest. Putting Fiona and Mina on busses, and treating Amy's feelings as a joke.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Maren » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:40 pm

Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)



I forgot to ask.. Why would Antoine's duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie?
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby BobR » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:01 pm

Maren wrote:
Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)


I forgot to ask.. Why would Antoine's duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie?

Oh, setting a time and place for a date, then being ordered by the King to take a detachment out because the Destructix (or whomever) were causing problems. Things like that...
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby BobR » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:36 pm

Mavrickindigo wrote:
Ken Penders wrote:SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS... (SONIC #160 & #161)

Good to see there was actually a plan to end this storyline. The way it actually happened in the book had it seem to be just a plothole. Though I have to wonder, how did sending Nicole in the past save the future if this event has already happened, and Sally already had Nicole to begin with?

Ah, but WHY did Sally have Nicole? Didn't you ever wonder why Nicole always seemed to be the most sophisticated technology around, even beyond Robotniks? Nicole was sent back to Sally from the future on the pretext of helping with the war against Robotnik, but her ancillary mission was to monitor and record the operations of the zones prior to the start of their collapse, and try to determine where and when the breakdown started to occur as well as to try to extrapolate what had to be done to save Mobius in the current story line. Where Nicole came from was actually hinted at in SatAM -- Nicole's voice was that of an older Sally (both Sally and Nicole were voiced by Kath Soucie, btw.)

SONIC: THIS ROBIAN, THIS HEDGEHOG (SONIC #164)

I don't know about this...it would be nice for Jules, but the readers would be out one cool robot dad. Unless he developed some T-1000 superpowers or something, it would take away from what he provides to the story

Through the nannites, Jules would look normal, though he'd still be a robot. However, as explored with the Tommy nannite infestation, the nannites would be capable of creating whatever Jules needed. And both of those ideas are an outgrowth of a short story I wrote called "...In Small Packages" where the Freedom Fighters, sans Sonic and Tails (who were out chasing after Naugus), discover Robotnik's greatest invention, the...well, if I tell you, I'd give it away. :o Anyway, if you want to read Part 1, it's on my Fur Affinity account at http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1658837 - if anyone's interested. Heh!

The idea was to tease whether or not Bunnie would accept based on the premise that she wasn't sure her and Antoine could lead a normal life due to her bionic parts. Eventually, events in SONIC #175 would have resulted in her saying yes to their engagement, leading to a spectacular wedding in #200.

Didn't we already establish that Antoine didn't care that he couldn't have a normal relationship with her back in the "Girls Rule" super special?

You're correct, Antoine didn't. But Bunnie still had her own reservations and was unsure of herself in a personal relationship. She still couldn't see why anyone would be interested in her because of her robotic parts.

Along the way, we would have explored the Sonic-Sally relationship in greater depth as I would be steering to get those two together after several trials and tribulations in which neither was sure what they themselves or the other really wanted.

The SEGA mandates would have probably ruined this plan.

No, not really. The mandates said Sonic was not to be married in the current timeline (M:25YL was okay, as that was 25 years in the future) or have a full-time girl friend. But the stories could still could explore his feelings and the like, like him trying to figure out why he felt so close to Sally over any of the others.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Mavrickindigo » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:17 pm

BobR wrote:Ah, but WHY did Sally have Nicole? Didn't you ever wonder why Nicole always seemed to be the most sophisticated technology around, even beyond Robotniks? Nicole was sent back to Sally from the future on the pretext of helping with the war against Robotnik, but her ancillary mission was to monitor and record the operations of the zones prior to the start of their collapse, and try to determine where and when the breakdown started to occur as well as to try to extrapolate what had to be done to save Mobius in the current story line. Where Nicole came from was actually hinted at in SatAM -- Nicole's voice was that of an older Sally (both Sally and Nicole were voiced by Kath Soucie, btw.)


An interesting idea, but it really is a huge paradox. If Nicole was sent to the past to fix the zones, how were the zones messed up to begin with?

You're correct, Antoine didn't. But Bunnie still had her own reservations and was unsure of herself in a personal relationship. She still couldn't see why anyone would be interested in her because of her robotic parts.


This is also true

One last thought: There doesn't seem to be any mention of Anonymous here. Would that have just been another unanswered question?
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Miko » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:16 pm

It's possible he hadn't laid the groundwork for dealing with it, within the pre made issues he'd already developed. Similar to how I doubt Ian when he arrived in 160 had a story planned for it at the moment

An interesting idea, but it really is a huge paradox. If Nicole was sent to the past to fix the zones, how were the zones messed up to begin with?


It miight've worked if this was an alternate reality, where Nicole is sent to study Mobius Prime for the purpose of studying the stability of the prime zone. Of course that would only work if the story went on to later learn that the prime zone had something to do with what was going on. Saying it would've been THE future would probably be..paradoxical.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby bwrosas » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:55 am

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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Antarctic Deity » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:18 am

So then, M:25YL was a future where NICOLE never existed? Doesn't that sort of invalidate it as the one true future? NICOLE is a pretty major character and plot device throughout this comic's run. It'd either have to be a future that basically invalidated itself by changing the past in a huge way, or NICOLE was in M:25YL and we just never saw her like most of the cast, which meant that the past WASN'T changed and the multiverse was basically doomed.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Cheezmatt » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:57 am

A fascinating read, though it surprises me that Sonic would give even half a steaming pile about Snively.

These stories (or their premise at least) sound very good; they seem to be of a different quality than the previous issues published.

Would you be able to elaborate on the nonsensical rewrites demanded in some of your final stories, or the purported other difficulties? The behind-the-scenes stories can sometimes be more interesting than the stories themselves.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby BobR » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:45 am

Antarctic Deity wrote:So then, M:25YL was a future where NICOLE never existed? Doesn't that sort of invalidate it as the one true future? NICOLE is a pretty major character and plot device throughout this comic's run. It'd either have to be a future that basically invalidated itself by changing the past in a huge way, or NICOLE was in M:25YL and we just never saw her like most of the cast, which meant that the past WASN'T changed and the multiverse was basically doomed.

Hardly. Here's Nicole's "lifespan" as we foresaw it: Nicole was created in the Mobian year 3261 (The year M:25YL takes place.) She was programmed with all the information Sally would need in the fight against Robotnik. But, she was also programmed to record and track any anomaly that affected Mobius and the zones. She was then sent back to Sally in the year 3228 (Robotnik took over in 3225) with indications that Nicole came from her father, the king. That was to keep Sally from asking too many questions about where Nicole really came from. As a young girl, getting something from her father whom she had not seen in several years, she glommed onto Nicole right away, accepting everything she was told. Would an older Sally have accepted that statement? Probably not.

So Sally grows with Nicole as a constant companion and confidante, moving into the adventures as we see them in SatAM and later the comic. All the while, unbeknownst to anyone at the time, Nicole is constantly scanning for these zonal anomalies. Nicole eventually reaches the year 3261 again, right after the point the "just built" Nicole was sent back. The lock on the memory of our now 33-year old Nicole releases, and all that data she accumulated during the past 33 years comes flooding back to help King Sonic, Guardian Knuckles, Royal Engineer Rotor, and Legion Scientist Cobar figure out a way to fix the problem. And something else, too, for Guardian Knuckles discovers he had a daughter whose existence was wiped out when Sonic went back in the time machine the first time to try to fix the problem...if you remember, Lara-Su vanished at the end of that story by Ken. So for Knuckles, the stakes were even greater than the survival of the planet Mobius.

So that was the plan. Don't ask for details, because that story was never written. Only the outline exists as a bunch of discussions between Ken and me (my help was mostly in the time travel arena, to keep everything at the right point in time.) There is no paradox, and it totally fits within the framework of everything that came before in the comic.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby SynjoDeonecros » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:55 am

Antarctic Deity wrote:So then, M:25YL was a future where NICOLE never existed? Doesn't that sort of invalidate it as the one true future? NICOLE is a pretty major character and plot device throughout this comic's run. It'd either have to be a future that basically invalidated itself by changing the past in a huge way, or NICOLE was in M:25YL and we just never saw her like most of the cast, which meant that the past WASN'T changed and the multiverse was basically doomed.


Yeah, that's a pretty big plot hole; either Nicole never existed, in which case none of the comics happened (since she played a prominent role in them), or she did, in which case she failed in her job to fix the timeline, or the timeline was never meant to be fixed.

I also don't like how Sonic not only failed to fix the timeline, but made things worse, as a result of his changes; what was the point in sending him back, then? Especially if their backup was sending Nicole back? It just seems like a waste of time, to me.

I also don't like the reasoning behind killing off Snivley; get us to sympathize with him just to kill him off to show that you can and we shouldn't expect you to NOT do stuff like that? That seems awfully calloused, to me.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby BobR » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:22 am

SynjoDeonecros wrote:Yeah, that's a pretty big plot hole; either Nicole never existed, in which case none of the comics happened (since she played a prominent role in them), or she did, in which case she failed in her job to fix the timeline, or the timeline was never meant to be fixed.

No, her job was NOT to fix the timeline, but to gather information for Rotor and Cobar to analyze to determine where things started to go wrong and hopefully come up with a method to fix it.

I also don't like how Sonic not only failed to fix the timeline, but made things worse, as a result of his changes; what was the point in sending him back, then? Especially if their backup was sending Nicole back? It just seems like a waste of time, to me.

Just another example of Sonic's "jump in feet first before looking" philosophy that he never outgrew.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Mavrickindigo » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:27 am

BobR wrote:with indications that Nicole came from her father, the king. That was to keep Sally from asking too many questions about where Nicole really came from.


What stopped her from asking questions when he came back?

And how did Lara-Su exist in the first place, if Nicole was sent back in time and did everything before?

Does it go something like this?

(go to end of list)->Nicole is "built" (actually repaired by Rotor, as seen in "In your Face")->Nicole sent back in time->Nicole gathers information->Lara-Su born->King Sonic goes back in time->Lara-Su erased from timeline for some reason->Nicole relays information and Knuckles finds out he had a daughter he had forgotten because she was erased->(back to top)

but then again, with this, Nicole has no true origin and thus this is a paradox.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby BobR » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:49 am

Mavrickindigo wrote:What stopped her from asking questions when he came back?

Nothing. It just never came up.

And how did Lara-Su exist in the first place, if Nicole was sent back in time and did everything before?

Two separate timelines...the current Nicole had no knowledge of Lara-Su either...it was when her memories recorded in the past were unlocked that the existence of Lara-Su was discovered up to the point Sonic jumped back, when she and all her history vanished from the active memory of Nicole. It didn't vanish from the recorded history. That was Cobar's trick, to keep that memory intact in case something did change in the time line.

Does it go something like this?

(go to end of list)->Nicole is "built" (actually repaired by Rotor, as seen in "In your Face")->Nicole sent back in time->Nicole gathers information->Lara-Su born->King Sonic goes back in time->Lara-Su erased from timeline for some reason->Nicole relays information and Knuckles finds out he had a daughter he had forgotten because she was erased->(back to top)

but then again, with this, Nicole has no true origin and thus this is a paradox.

Almost...Nicole is built by Rotor and Cobar. There is a definite "starting" point for Nicole when she was first built. Yes, both the brand new Nicole and the 33-yr old Nicole (same Nicole!) were together at that same point in time. This does not create a paradox nor any cataclysmic time line destruction.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby SynjoDeonecros » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:41 am

BobR wrote:Almost...Nicole is built by Rotor and Cobar. There is a definite "starting" point for Nicole when she was first built. Yes, both the brand new Nicole and the 33-yr old Nicole (same Nicole!) were together at that same point in time. This does not create a paradox nor any cataclysmic time line destruction.


Umm...yes it does. In fact, it creates a huge paradox and plot hole, mainly the fact that, if both Nicoles were in the same place in the future, then 33 year old Nicole SHOULD have all the data that Rotor and Cobar needed about what happened to the timeline, since she was likely present during those events. It's a similar conundrum as the one with Ravage showing up in Beast Wars; in that show, the events of G1 and the Great War were shown as Arthurian lore, vague and inaccurate, because of the impression given by the show that a) the government suppressed all knowledge of the events and locations to those events, and b) supposedly there were no original Transformers from that era alive to give an accurate account. While a) was portrayed inconsistently (the Maximals did their damndest to suppress that knowledge, the Predacons seemed to not have that kind of restriction), Ravage's appearance completely negates b), calling into question why the events of the past were so vague and ill-defined at that time. It's a similar problem; if the storyline calls for the future to have limited knowledge of the past, yet there's someone or something from the past existing in the future that knows all about the past, then why is there such limited knowledge of it in the future? We know that Nicole is programmed to never reveal future events, but the reverse CAN'T be true, can it?

The only way I can see this NOT being a paradox is if you were going for a stable time loop sort of thing, where Nicole was created to ensure that they get the information that they already have, but that's not what you're saying with this; what it sounds like you're saying is that - even with Present!Nicole and Future!Nicole existing at the same time frame - they still don't know what caused things to go out of control, which can't be possible. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with everyone else here; there's no way this plan could work unless Present!Nicole doesn't exist in the future.

BTW, the description stated that Sonic's changes altered the future. Two questions about that: as I argued beforehand, if the future was always meant to be changed by Sonic's actions, then there's just no way that the 25YL storyline is the definitive future, is it? Second, what changes did Sonic make? What was the purpose of turning him into a "temporal ghost" and having his actions be treated as a supernatural influence?
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Mavrickindigo » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:48 pm

Ok so that makes a LITTLE more sense, but overall is still a bit of a problem. Because they HAVE Nicole, they need to know where she came from, and knowing she came from the future selves, they knew they had to make her to send her back and get the information in the first place. This still excludes an "original" timeline, and also makes it so M20yl is not THE future but the alternate future where Nicole comes from to ensure the future is the same (which is to mean, make sure it changes enough for them to be able to fix things).

Of course, a stable time loop just seems a bit too "orderly" for a comic series that sets its mythology based on "Chaos" emeralds and Chaos forces and all that

EDIT: I want to also say, that as a person who would like to be in the comic writing business, that releasing these planned ideas probably isn't the best thing to do, seeing as anyone working on the book can't use these ideas now, no matter how interesting these threads are.
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Lord Exor » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:25 pm

SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS... (SONIC #160 & #161) - King Sonic discovers he’s returned to the scene of one of his greatest battles and possibly the cause of his problems in the future. The problem is that no one can see or hear him, and any attempt to take action results in someone suspecting a supernatural cause. When he returns to the future, he discovers a changed world on top of having failed to change events in the past. As a last resort, Rotor sends Nicole into the past after having created her.

Ken, would this battle happen to have been Endgame? And if so, would it have involved the original Robotnik?
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Re: In Answer To Numerous Requests

Postby Antarctic Deity » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:24 am

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