Ken and copyright

[BobR]

Exactly. You can't use characters that look like they come from Sonic's world without Sega autorisation, Ken. Unless it's fan fiction or fancomics. Unless you use a drastic different style, with NO references to Sega and Archie's universes, NO characters tied to these universe (so, if you use Locke, he can NOT be Knuckles' father).

You can be assured that when Ken is ready to create his own series based on his characters, than all necessary copyright and trademark agreements will be in place as required for legal considerations. Also remember, the current legal situation is between Ken Penders and Archie Comics. As of this date, SEGA is not part of the current proceedings. Whether they may become involved in the future is not known at this time.

[Mavrickindigo]

Exactly. You can't use characters that look like they come from Sonic's world without Sega autorisation, Ken. Unless it's fan fiction or fancomics. Unless you use a drastic different style, with NO references to Sega and Archie's universes, NO characters tied to these universe (so, if you use Locke, he can NOT be Knuckles' father).

You can be assured that when Ken is ready to create his own series based on his characters, than all necessary copyright and trademark agreements will be in place as required for legal considerations. Also remember, the current legal situation is between Ken Penders and Archie Comics. As of this date, SEGA is not part of the current proceedings. Whether they may become involved in the future is not known at this time.

You'd bet they'd be involved if Ken started drawing "Knuckles with a beard" and calling it his character

[Ken Penders]

Lara-Su does not look like Knuckles with a beard. Neither does Julie-Su. Not even close.

[PaulAgnew]

Lara-Su does not look like Knuckles with a beard. Neither does Julie-Su. Not even close.

You tell them Ken. Besides, Lara-Su doesn’t even have a beard.

As for the now-common belief in fan minds that every single Echidna is just “Knuckles plus…”, that originates primarily from a statement made by the current Sonic writer. In a discussion regarding whether or not the Echidna race were to ever play a significant role in the series again, he responded that all those “Knuckles knockoffs” are best utilised when “as far away as possible” and “in few numbers”. This opinion was shared with on-off illustrator Jonathan Gray, and branched out from their message board into what is now considered an “established fact”.

The only reason why Echidnas appear to share the same design is through artistic interpretation. For instance, Knuckles and Julie-Su were completely different when pencilled by Dawn Best, yet Knuckles and Lien-Da share numerous attributes if Jamal Peppers (who borrows the same designs as Tracy Yardley- see ‘that’ statue in STH#215) were on assignment. They only look the same IF the artist wants them to be.

It just depends on how one portrays them, and the levels of investment they’re willing to instil on characteristics and personalities.

[Antarctic Deity]

Mmm, nah. They all look the same, even with artists trying to hide it sometimes. That response was sort of lame too, really. Go, man! Show him that Julie-Su and Lara-Su aren't Locke, who was better designed in Return to Angel Island anyway!

[mattd]

I'm not a student of law, but it's still confusing as to how you plan on going about all of this, Ken. You created the characters, but all they are is an expansion of a world that was already in place before you got there. If you use them in your own series, are you going to use Angel Island, planet Mobius, or anything else that IS NOT yours?

I also would like to ask if you're aware of the lawsuit between Neil Gaiman and Todd McFarlane (surely you are.) Neil was awarded partial ownership of Medieval Spawn because he created him for an issue of the Spawn comic (sounds similar to what you're doing.) Therefore, Todd and Neil both owned the character of Medieval Spawn, and neither can use it without the others' permission and without proper compensation. So, it sounds like you'd possibly win in a lawsuit, but only partial ownership, because you CANNOT tell me that Julie-Su, Locke and the others aren't derivative of the Knuckles character that was already established before you started writing the comic.

And since the characters are only there to support the Knuckles story, surely Archie wouldn't allow you to use parts of the universe that was already established, so you'll have to completely change the characters' history anyway, so how would people still be attracted to them, if they are at all? The only reason anyone liked those characters is because they are in Sonic and Knuckles' world, not the other way around. I'm not a Julie-Su fan, a Locke fan, a "Brotherhood of Guardians" fan, and I wouldn't buy a comic book about them if it didn't involve Knuckles in some way. I can't imagine there's a fan base strictly for these characters, so it seems to me that you're not doing it to keep their legacy strong, but because you either see it as a way to keep cash flow from the Sonic series or you're just a selfish and jealous former writer for an always-been-mediocre comic.

The only people that really suffer from this crap are the fans, and everyone else involved are to blame. Something should be put in place where, if a company approves the implementation of a new character (derivative of a previously established one or not) then they are responsible for compensating the creator of that character. Or, at least, that in the creators' contract it's stated that whatever they create he/she gives sole ownership to the company, so either way stupid things like this don't happen and the comic book fans don't suffer. Call Marvel and DC bullies for what they do to characters new writers create, but at least the comics don't suffer from missing characters because of real life lawsuits.

Your "characters" are nothing but derivatives from something you didn't create. If it's fair for you to take legal action against Archie, then I don't see how SEGA can't take legal action against you if you use these characters in their own series. I literally burst out laughing when I read your previous post that Julie-Su doesn't look like Knuckles. It's a female version of him, for crying out loud! You've been around furry comics too long if you don't think they look alike. I think if you showed a picture of Knuckles and Julie-Su to any random person and asked if they looked alike, they would say yes. Every single one of your Echidna characters are a "Knuckles-Plus", and if you get compensation for their creation and use, you shouldn't be allowed to use them outside of the Sonic universe without the chance of getting sued for ripping off the character of Knuckles, by using a character that looks just like him but with a beard.

[Immortheus]

As for the now-common belief in fan minds that every single Echidna is just “Knuckles plus…”, that originates primarily from a statement made by the current Sonic writer. In a discussion regarding whether or not the Echidna race were to ever play a significant role in the series again, he responded that all those “Knuckles knockoffs” are best utilised when “as far away as possible” and “in few numbers”. This opinion was shared with on-off illustrator Jonathan Gray, and branched out from their message board into what is now considered an “established fact”.

Wrong. That complaint's been going around for years. Don't try to make it moot by blaming other people for it.

[mattd]

As for the now-common belief in fan minds that every single Echidna is just “Knuckles plus…”, that originates primarily from a statement made by the current Sonic writer. In a discussion regarding whether or not the Echidna race were to ever play a significant role in the series again, he responded that all those “Knuckles knockoffs” are best utilised when “as far away as possible” and “in few numbers”. This opinion was shared with on-off illustrator Jonathan Gray, and branched out from their message board into what is now considered an “established fact”.

Wrong. That complaint's been going around for years. Don't try to make it moot by blaming other people for it.

Thank you. I haven't read the comic since 2006, so I had no idea anyone involved with the comic ever said that. "Knuckles knock-offs" and "Knuckles-Plus" was the first thing that came to mind when I read about Ken's absurd lawsuit, which I'm excited to see fail.

[Ken Penders]

I'm not a student of law, but it's still confusing as to how you plan on going about all of this, Ken. You created the characters, but all they are is an expansion of a world that was already in place before you got there. If you use them in your own series, are you going to use Angel Island, planet Mobius, or anything else that IS NOT yours?

I really can't get into specifics here, but trust me when I say whatever I do will not be based on anything SEGA has done. While I acknowledge that's a very provocative statement, it's also a fact. I can't afford at this time to deal in speculation, flights of fancy or anything not firmly grounded in reality.

When I can talk about the details, I will, if given the chance.

[Antarctic Deity]

So I guess it's not about echidnas guarding Angel Island with Chaos Emeralds/the Master Emerald? That's... something. Actually, what's really something is that this is supposed to be entirely Knuckles-less and still promises to be a satisfying continuation of the epic entirely centered on Knuckles.

[Ken Penders]

Actually, what's really something is that this is supposed to be entirely Knuckles-less and still promises to be a satisfying continuation of the epic entirely centered on Knuckles.

That's why this is a job best left to the professionals. Many elements were already in some form of gestation back when I was actually working on the books. I just never got the chance to execute them.

[Luger]

So I guess it's not about echidnas guarding Angel Island with Chaos Emeralds/the Master Emerald? That's... something. Actually, what's really something is that this is supposed to be entirely Knuckles-less and still promises to be a satisfying continuation of the epic entirely centered on Knuckles.

Never underestimate the loyalty of the fans. There are many people who absolutely loved the expanded echidna lore, myself included, and would readily pay money to see it coninuted in some form or another. If a graphic novel about the Brotherhood is released, which Mr. Penders has suggested on this forum, I'll be one of the first in line to buy it, and I think there are many others out there who share this outlook. Before Knuckles was even born there was 400 years of Guardians, and before that there were thousands of years of echidna development and expansion. Knuckles is not required to be present for anything involving the lore of the echidnas, not even the Chaos Emeralds technically are. Obviously the inclusion of these things would market them better, but don't think that no one will be interested in a series about the Brotherhood or the echidnas just because Knuckles isn't present.

Mmm, nah. They all look the same, even with artists trying to hide it sometimes. That response was sort of lame too, really. Go, man! Show him that Julie-Su and Lara-Su aren't Locke, who was better designed in Return to Angel Island anyway!

Some people feel the expanded echidna cast looks too much like Knuckles, some people don't. Different artists have different ways of portraying the same characters - sometimes they look more like Knuckles, sometimes they don't. By the same standards that Knuckles looks just like Thunderhawk or Spectre or Athair, Sonic looks identical to Shadow, Silver and Mephiles (to name only a few characters, and SEGA-Sonic ones at that). Also keep in mind that there is no reason many of the expanded Knuckles cast couldn't receive a visual tweek to make them more unique for any new project by Mr. Penders.

For myself, the biggest issue about the creation of a graphic novel or new series written by Penders about the expanded echidna cast would be how to treat it canonically on Mobius Encyclopaedia, especially if there are plot points that cannot be reconciled into the main Archie-Sonic canon. A conundrum I won't have to deal with unless/until Mr. Penders managed to publish said graphic novel which he has referenced on this forum.

[mattd]

Actually, what's really something is that this is supposed to be entirely Knuckles-less and still promises to be a satisfying continuation of the epic entirely centered on Knuckles.

That's why this is a job best left to the professionals. Many elements were already in some form of gestation back when I was actually working on the books. I just never got the chance to execute them.

How condescending. Considering you wrote for a comic book that is barely even recognized in the comic book universe (which is already a small community) you are still cocky and arrogant. Some fan artists/web-hosts in the sonic universe/fandom have as much recognition as you - stop being a tool.

You don't have anything in particular to say until someone questions a certain part of your reputation that you feel has integrity. How about the fact that 95% of your previous fans won't buy your book now because of your current situation that YOU put yourself in? I feel you've buried yourself professionally, and I for one will be helping that by not buying your book. Not only because of this, but because you'll have to tweak it enough so that the original point of the story (I.E. it's connection to Knuckles) won't be as prevalent, or will be ignored completely. I care about Knuckles, not his crappy knock offs that you created. Which, if they cannot be connected to Knuckles, is in fact all they are. I think you should get royalties, yes, but your other explanations for wanting the rights to these characters is bull-crap and you have completely lost all respect from a very large majority of the people who respected you. Congratulations on your career suicide.

[PaulAgnew]

That complaint's been going around for years.

Fair enough, but never to levels it has reached in today's era.

Don't try to make it moot by blaming other people for it.

Never once have I openly badmouthed anyone professionally employed by SEGA or Archie Comics, and by doing so in the future would be a case of hypocracy. All I did was quote what the writer has said on numerous occasions.

That response was sort of lame too, really.

That 'lame' response was just personal opinion, and it's polite to respect mine as I do yours despite any differences.

Some people feel the expanded echidna cast looks too much like Knuckles, some people don't. Different artists have different ways of portraying the same characters - sometimes they look more like Knuckles, sometimes they don't.

Thank you for understanding the direction I was approaching this matter.

For myself, the biggest issue about the creation of a graphic novel or new series written by Penders about the expanded echidna cast would be how to treat it canonically on Mobius Encyclopaedia, especially if there are plot points that cannot be reconciled into the main Archie-Sonic canon. A conundrum I won't have to deal with unless/until Mr. Penders managed to publish said graphic novel which he has referenced on this forum.

If you want to add the graphic novel into your site, consider it an Apocrypha for now. Look up 'Alignment' on the Transformers Wiki (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Alignment) to understand why.

[Mavrickindigo]

Lara-Su does not look like Knuckles with a beard. Neither does Julie-Su. Not even close.

Ha Ha, what a story, Ken!

I was talking about your favorite pet, Locke

Knuckles is not required to be present for anything involving the lore of the echidnas, not even the Chaos Emeralds technically are.

Except, you know....that's what the guardians are actually guarding

For myself, the biggest issue about the creation of a graphic novel or new series written by Penders about the expanded echidna cast would be how to treat it canonically on Mobius Encyclopaedia, especially if there are plot points that cannot be reconciled into the main Archie-Sonic canon. A conundrum I won't have to deal with unless/until Mr. Penders managed to publish said graphic novel which he has referenced on this forum.

I don't see this as a problem. Obviously it won't be anywhere related to canon, unless for some reason the project is endorsed by both SEGA and ARCHIE and is mentioned in the comic itself (Tier 1 canon, you call it) or if it is endorsed by both SEGA and ARCHIE and one of the people working on the comic mentions that its canon.

If you really wish to include stuff from it in the encyclopedia, you could just make a separate heading in the characters' articles about the stuff that happens in Ken's novel, if you really want to.

But then again, there's no way that its going to be taking place on "Mobius" so why even have it in the "Mobius Encyclopedia"

[PaulAgnew]

I was talking about your favorite pet, Locke

It's been stated twice (once at the original message board, and later on the TSS interview) that he doesn't have a favourite character, as it would be like asking a father to pick their favourite child.

As for why Locke was picked, it has to start at one point, and his quest to find the Brotherhood was never completed due to unforseen circumstances.

Some fan artists/web-hosts in the sonic universe/fandom have as much recognition as you

These fans may have over a million pageviews on artwork-posting Forums or even the same number of friends of social networking sites, but in the greater scheme of things, they're still Joe Unknowns.

[mattd]

I was talking about your favorite pet, Locke

It's been stated twice (once at the original message board, and later on the TSS interview) that he doesn't have a favourite character, as it would be like asking a father to pick their favourite child.

As for why Locke was picked, it has to start at one point, and his quest to find the Brotherhood was never completed due to unforseen circumstances.

Some fan artists/web-hosts in the sonic universe/fandom have as much recognition as you

These fans may have over a million pageviews on artwork-posting Forums or even the same number of friends of social networking sites, but in the greater scheme of things, they're still Joe Unknowns.

I'm sure you didn't think you were doing so, but thank you for re-establishing my point. Since they are on the same level as Ken as far as fan awareness, means that Ken as well is practically a "Joe Unkown" in the grand scheme of things.

[Ken Penders]

I'm sure you didn't think you were doing so, but thank you for re-establishing my point. Since they are on the same level as Ken as far as fan awareness, means that Ken as well is practically a "Joe Unkown" in the grand scheme of things

Hardly. First off, website page views alone don't establish credentials anywhere near the level of credit I have. I'm a paid professional, with credits at every major comics company in the industry as well as actual credits in film and animation. I've never concentrated my efforts on the web as that has never been a priority for me beyond being able to keep in touch with the fanbase, float an idea or get out a particular message. If I do business with someone and they check me out, I can assure you I get more attention and serious consideration than anyone who simply throws their work up on the web for all to see.

My priority has always been my work. If people like it, that's great. Not everyone will. Do I care if I get recognition? For my work, yeah, but I don't seek the spotlight in particular nor do I care where I measure up in terms of relative popularity. People contact me all the time saying how much they like what I did, and where they have complaints, I'm interested in that as well.

Be honest with yourself as well. People wouldn't be as angry with me taking the stand I currently am with Archie if I were simply a fan-based creator. They'd think it's a joke and treat it as such, more than likely ignore it. It certainly wouldn't get much attention in the press, if at all. However, I do know a LOT of people in various quarters are paying attention because of my track record with Archie and SONIC. That is something no one can take away or deny. I'm constantly surprised by the number of people who've been following my efforts as well as the level of support as a result. People also wouldn't be as interested in my BROTHERHOOD OF THE GUARDIANS project if I were simply just another fan creator.

Also keep in mind just because someone is in the news doesn't mean everyone is familiar with what they've done. I couldn't identify a single Garth Brooks, Lady Gaga or Kanye West song to save my life, nor have I ever watched an episode of FRIENDS or LOST. Don't care to either. I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they could simply get paid for doing what they like to do. I'm fortunate in that regard most of the time, and in general I wish everyone else could be as well.

[mattd]

I'm sure you didn't think you were doing so, but thank you for re-establishing my point. Since they are on the same level as Ken as far as fan awareness, means that Ken as well is practically a "Joe Unkown" in the grand scheme of things

Hardly. First off, website page views alone don't establish credentials anywhere near the level of credit I have. I'm a paid professional, with credits at every major comics company in the industry as well as actual credits in film and animation. I've never concentrated my efforts on the web as that has never been a priority for me beyond being able to keep in touch with the fanbase, float an idea or get out a particular message. If I do business with someone and they check me out, I can assure you I get more attention and serious consideration than anyone who simply throws their work up on the web for all to see.

My priority has always been my work. If people like it, that's great. Not everyone will. Do I care if I get recognition? For my work, yeah, but I don't seek the spotlight in particular nor do I care where I measure up in terms of relative popularity. People contact me all the time saying how much they like what I did, and where they have complaints, I'm interested in that as well.

Be honest with yourself as well. People wouldn't be as angry with me taking the stand I currently am with Archie if I were simply a fan-based creator. They'd think it's a joke and treat it as such, more than likely ignore it. It certainly wouldn't get much attention in the press, if at all. However, I do know a LOT of people in various quarters are paying attention because of my track record with Archie and SONIC. That is something no one can take away or deny. I'm constantly surprised by the number of people who've been following my efforts as well as the level of support as a result. People also wouldn't be as interested in my BROTHERHOOD OF THE GUARDIANS project if I were simply just another fan creator.

Also keep in mind just because someone is in the news doesn't mean everyone is familiar with what they've done. I couldn't identify a single Garth Brooks, Lady Gaga or Kanye West song to save my life, nor have I ever watched an episode of FRIENDS or LOST. Don't care to either. I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they could simply get paid for doing what they like to do. I'm fortunate in that regard most of the time, and in general I wish everyone else could be as well.

Thanks for misunderstanding my point. Your credentials are not what I was arguing: People in the Sonic fandom know of artists and creators that are NOT paid pro's, yet fans still know them just like they know you. You're known in the Sonic community mainly, which you can't deny, considering the fact that you still seem to be trying to milk something out of the comic book series that you were released from 5 years ago. I'm sure people in the comic book world know of you, but again, that wasn't the point either. You are a lower level comic book writer, in an industry that is small in and of itself anyway. Not that I'm bashing that specifically, because that's great that you get paid to do what you like. But your cockiness in response to the person above was unnecessary because you are not Brian Michael Bendis or Stan Lee.

Also, to quote you, "keep in mind just because someone is in the news doesn't mean everyone is familiar with what they've done." This more so applies to you than any of the people you mentioned above, but you come off as if you're on their level because you are a freelance comic writer and artist, which is laughable if indeed you think that. You might not know their work, but you know their names. Do you think they know yours? I didn't even know about this crap you're pulling until a couple days ago while it's been in the public domain now since July. Wow, you are such a big deal!

Understand please that a SMALL number of people are angry about it. How many people could possibly read the sonic comics? I haven't read one in years. Even the biggest comic sales come from Marvel, and that's only 100,000 pre-orders or so. NOT a large number. Considering Sonic doesn't sell nearly as much, your point of "oooh so many people are mad at me!" makes it sound like you think you're well known. Again, in the Sonic world, sure. In quarters throughout the comic industry? Sure. Is the comic industry big? No. It's like being a well known local band. This entire thing you're doing with the Sonic comics is one giant ego stroke, and it's sickening.

No, people wouldn't be as interested in Brotherhood of Guardians if it was fan-fiction because: It would be fan fiction. What a silly point to make.

Again, it's great that you get paid. *claps* Don't bother patting yourself on the back, because you stroked your own ego enough in your response to me. I wasn't arguing that you're a professional: I was arguing that you're a lower level comic book writer/artist. Which, like you said, is something no one can take away or deny.

[PaulAgnew]

Since they are on the same level as Ken as far as fan awareness, means that Ken as well is practically a "Joe Unkown" in the grand scheme of things.

If this were a discussion regarding monumental achievements on a global scale, you would have a case. However this isn't, so it's not.

I'm a paid professional, with credits at every major comics company in the industry as well as actual credits in film and animation.

And that's exactly what I meant in the above post. Unless these fans are long-term professionals hired and paid for their work, at day's end they're still unknowns.

[mattd]

Since they are on the same level as Ken as far as fan awareness, means that Ken as well is practically a "Joe Unkown" in the grand scheme of things.

If this were a discussion regarding monumental achievements on a global scale, you would have a case. However this isn't, so it's not.

I'm a paid professional, with credits at every major comics company in the industry as well as actual credits in film and animation.

And that's exactly what I meant in the above post. Unless these fans are long-term professionals hired and paid for their work, at day's end they're still unknowns.

Unknowns in the comic industry. Yep. But fan awareness is what I was mentioning.

If this was a discussion about professional credentials, you would have a case. However, this isn't, so it's not.

[BobR]

Knuckles is not required to be present for anything involving the lore of the echidnas, not even the Chaos Emeralds technically are.

Except, you know....that's what the guardians are actually guarding

No, Knuckles is guarding the Master Chaos Emerald. The Brotherhood is guarding Echidna society from 1. The Dark Legion, and 2. The Dingos (remember them. with General von Stryker?) Both the Dark Legion and the Dingos are Ken's creations. I think that could open up a whole range of story lines without a chaos emerald or Knuckles in sight.

[PaulAgnew]

If this was a discussion about professional credentials, you would have a case. However, this isn't, so it's not.

It's most pleasing to see that my writing has become such an inspiration in how you construct posts. Shows a fair level of maturity.

[Tylinos]

Unless these fans are long-term professionals hired and paid for their work, at day's end they're still unknowns.

You do realise someone can be paid for their work and still be less known overall than someone who does work for free, right? It all depends on the person and their work. Not saying this applies here or not, but just wanted to point that out.

[Mavrickindigo]

Knuckles is not required to be present for anything involving the lore of the echidnas, not even the Chaos Emeralds technically are.

Except, you know....that's what the guardians are actually guarding

No, Knuckles is guarding the Master Chaos Emerald. The Brotherhood is guarding Echidna society from 1. The Dark Legion, and 2. The Dingos (remember them. with General von Stryker?) Both the Dark Legion and the Dingos are Ken's creations. I think that could open up a whole range of story lines without a chaos emerald or Knuckles in sight.

The Brotherhood of Guardians are a dedicated order made to guard the island and everything about Echidna society, which includes the chaos emeralds. Sure I suppose you could set up a different Macguffin to get the rock in the air, and change the whole "rite of passage" thing from being a guardian of the emeralds to something else, but then again what's the point if they're going to be so far removed from what they are? Same characters, different coat of paint? From what I recall a huge chunk of the Guardians were merely pop culture references. I mean we have Steppenwolf (has appearance similarities to DC's Steppenwolf), Spectre (I've seen an IMage super hero who looks just like) him), that one guy who looked like that pilot from "Star Trek TNG", etc etc

And that's exactly what I meant in the above post. Unless these fans are long-term professionals hired and paid for their work, at day's end they're still unknowns.

Isn't it a little funny that one of these "unknowns" was the guy who replaced Ken?