COMING SOON IN 2012

[Tylinos]

Where do I say the characters had nothing to do with the comic? By the same token, that doesn't mean Sega or Archie had anything to do with the development of the characters or set-up that took place in the series.

Well, alright. Maybe it was just really bad wording on your part, but the bit I was talking about made it sound like you meant their creation had nothing to do at all with Archie or Sega in any way, not just that it wasn't the people at Sega or Archie who made them.

Also, regarding the Dark Egg Legion thing: Does it weaken them as characters and feel kind of silly? Yeah. But it was either that or not use them at all. If I recall, he said it was mainly that the book literally did not have the room for them in the wake of Knuckles losing his series. The only way they even stayed in after it was cancelled was by having Knuckles stories taking up half of every issue for a while. It's one of the problems of a huge cast being developed in a side book and then that side book being cancelled. If Sonic Universe is cancelled, for instance, I doubt we'd be seeing much of the Battle Bird Armada anymore. There just wouldn't be room for them.

And honestly, I've seen far more complaints about the Brotherhood being removed from the book due to lack of room than the Legion being kept relevant by being changed up.

[Mavrickindigo]

If someone doesn't like what I do, fine. That's their choice. They should support what they like. But don't act like there isn't an audience for my characters and the world they inhabit. SONIC UNIVERSE proves that.

The only characters of yours that appeared in Sonic Universe Universe thus far are Julie-Su, Enerjak, Lien-Da, and Lara-Su (and Abby, the Photo-realistic Koala maid). Most of these characters weren't in the spotlight, they appeared in the KNUCKLES (a sega character), Silver (another Sega Character), and the 30 years later (unrelated to the story you made for XYL, not to mention one of the weakest arcs in the series) story arcs. People didn't buy those arcs of Sonic universe for your characters, Ken, except maybe the Silver arc, but even then certainly most new people picked those up because Silver the Hedgehog was on the cover.

I'll give you a bit on the world thing though, since the world of the Silver arc was based heavily on your writings. I've often called you the "George Lucas of Sonic" mainly because no matter what people say about your writing, at least you're a great "ideas" man who makes concepts that other people can run with an utilize to tell stories. You brought in some of my favorite concepts into the comic, but as the series went on, something happened and the writing got stale and uninteresting. *shrug*

Sonic Universe may be focusing on side characters, but most of them are SEGA characters. The only Archie characters who had major focus thus far where the Dragon Kingdom (Frank Storm and Ian Flynn) and Scourge (You, Mike K. and Ian Flynn, and that's not really too creative to make "Sonic, but Evil!")

[Antarctic Deity]

I don't have to base my opinion on anything fans post. I can easily sum up my opinion on three words -- Dark Egg Legion. Hoo boy. Shows a complete lack of understanding how to handle the characters if that's how they're incorporated in the current mythos.

No. You've never read a single issue with Dark Egg Legion, by so your own standards, you don't get to say a single word on it. Especially considering the Dark Egg Legion was a very special situation that actually showed a better grasp on the Dark Legion's ideals and history that you set up than you could ever muster. This whole "they could totally beat up Eggman without even trying" thing just is terrible: it doesn't even agree with the history of the book, it's just pointless egotism.
(And then it's even worse because the Dark Legion weren't defeated by Eggman to become the Dark Egg Legion: they were taken down by Knuckles, in an act of redemption for most of them. So this little "my character could totally beat up your character" is even more pointless. :V)

Sonic Universe shows off a lot of characters, but pretty much none of them are yours. A whole lot of Sega characters show up though, and we KNOW they can sell.

[Lammy]

The reason I ran with the KNUCKLES series as opposed to continuing as the head writer of the SONIC book is precisely because I had a blank slate to work with. There was nothing viable to make a series work until I went in and assembled the whole operation. Knuckles could have just as easily lived in the arctic at his fortress of solitude guarding the last power chip and you're still going to have to do something in order to make the character viable on an ongoing basis. The games certainly don't supply enough of anything to go beyond one 48-page special.

Fleetway's Sonic the Comic did it very well. StC Knuckles stories were fantastic and they didn't have to create thousands of Knuckles recolours. They only added one echidna known as Dr Zachary. They respected what Sega said : Knuckles as the last echidna on his island. No useless characters. No "hidden city on the island" crap. No "soul touch" or anything ripped from Star Trek/Wars. Just original stories of Knuckles, sometimes on his island, sometimes not. Sometimes all by himself, sometimes helped by the Chaotix or even Sonic.

[Tylinos]

Yeah. One of the things Fleetway did really well was make lengthy and fan-loved adaptions of the games, and build on characters while sticking close to the games.

[KaosuReido]

How many times have you been proud to say you've never read a single issue past your reign? No, fans whining to you doesn't count as a full and unbiased view on the matter.

I don't have to base my opinion on anything fans post. I can easily sum up my opinion on three words -- Dark Egg Legion. Hoo boy. Shows a complete lack of understanding how to handle the characters if that's how they're incorporated in the current mythos.

Besides, Ian himself has posted that Archie and Sega would rather he focus on the core cast than anything I developed, which is why he shoved so much of it aside.

My point with SONIC UNIVERSE is that the spotlight isn't on the headliners, which pretty much answers how I can do a book using everyone but Knuckles. Whether or not you think my work has an audience is immaterial to the discussion.

Ah, but you completely dodged the question there, didn't you? He didn't ask you what your opinion was based on hearsay. He asked why you feel that you can tell others their criticism is invalid for not reading your (unpublished) works, when you are criticizing works you yourself haven't read. Your opinion isn't in question here, it's the fact that you are a hypocrite.

Oh, and, the Dark Egg Legion makes a lot more sense than Echidnas being the most powerful force on the entire planet, and yet still having never done anything to clean it up. You never did answer why Echidnas were so special in the comic, did you? An entire civilization, centuries more advanced than anyone else even after they "abandoned" their tech (with it returning as early as their very first appearance), and they're stymied by... what? Dingos? An even more advanced arm of their own family? What keeps them from just wiping out Eggman, beyond the simple fact that they're lazy?

Now, see, THAT would be a story arc. The Echidnas being shown as flawed, lazy, egotistical hypocrites. However, it was never written that way. They were portrayed as the most powerful force on the planet, and that it was their birthright, and how DARE anyone suggest otherwise. Are you going to suggest Robotnik was beneath them? I mean, that's a little odd when he took over an entire planet in ten years, and has invaded their island multiple times. I guess he's not an Echidna, though, so he's worthless by default.

So, when the time came to try to thrust your future as canon, you didn't even try to explain it. Knuckles literally handwaved him away, so you didn't have to explain why the rest of the world couldn't seem to do it if he was so unimportant. Sure, you can claim you did something great by convincing Sega to let you get rid of Robotnik for 25 issues, but who cares? Literally making a villain you don't like disappear isn't an act of good writing, and you did it TWICE. Endgame and 25YL. The first time it appeared to be hubris, but then you did the exact same "well whatever" handwave to get rid of him again. YEARS after the fact. That long, and you still hadn't come up with anything to do with him?

At that point, it's pretty obvious, you don't care about the Sonic mythos at all. You don't even care about the Knuckles mythos, where they match with Sega. You care about the little world you had to keep running on author fiat, because the comic wasn't about it at all. In that case, why would you even try to recreate it like this? You could easily just separate the Sega elements from your own entirely, since yours don't even connect at all. No one would care.

The issue, of course, is that then it wouldn't sell. No one would care. So, you're trying to keep what you can that you didn't originate; the design of Echidnas, the concept of the floating island, the designation of Guardian (something Sega had applied to Knuckles in the past), and hey, look at this, characters and stories too. Unless Knuckles has mysteriously died in a freak accident and somehow is never referred to by name ("Dad", "Your father", "That Guardian"), you can't use him. He's never been yours, ever. Plus the rest of the Sonic world can't be used, either. Everything has to take place on this island, floating in the sky. Completely disconnected from everything it would have had in the past. You have to write in a little bubble, to keep from stepping on toes. All to make sure that Sega won't have even more legal recourse to swoop in and slap you down.

For what, though? Why would you do that to yourself? The possible added money from sales due to the connections aren't worth the legal bills and hassle. You're poisoning your career over something as petty as a ten year old comic most people only remember as "that Knuckles thing". As I said before, the only thing I can see happening from this is you're looking for a settlement. You want Archie and Sega to throw up their hands, and give you something to make you just go away. Of course, if they don't agree to that, you're pretty much done for. Whether or not you are technically correct with regards to legal status, these are large companies. If they want to, they will roll you over. Oh sure, it'll cost them more than it would to hand you a settlement, but that's not guaranteed. They could just keep throwing lawyers and appeals your way every time you try to take a step.

So, why do you think a multitude of people think you're a jerk, despite you being the underdog against a big corporation? It's because you treat everyone like they're beneath you, you skip answering the questions that people want to know, you badmouth things you've admitted you've never read, and you frankly just come off like a jackass all the time. You know how Frank Miller's work can generally be summed up with "WHORES WHORES WHORES" these days? You're "ECHIDNAS ECHIDNAS ECHIDNAS" and that's all anyone really remembers you for now. This is very much not changing that; it's clinging to the past as hard as you can, trying to make it work again about 14 years too late. I loved the Knuckles comics back in the day; I reread those story arcs over and over. Going back to them now, though, they're crap. They have plot holes, they have Mary Sues everywhere, and they are completely disconnected from the rest of the world. You want to go back to that, to the crap I liked when I was 10. Well, I'm quite a bit older now. As are the rest of the people who loved your work back when they didn't know better. That crap doesn't cut it anymore, and you of all people should know that.

[Tylinos]

I'm going to have to agree with most of what KaosuReido said. Mr. Penders, please, when you have the time, search around the internet on the subject of this current stuff if you haven't already. You'll find that people are almost universally against you on this because of the attitude you've been taking. Heck, a lot of these people have said in the past if you'd simply wanted rights to royalties on use of your characters and story reprintings, they'd be behind you on it, but that the way you've been acting turned them away. I'm sure this graphic novel will have a little niche within a niche audience, and that can be just fine sometimes, but it's kind of a sad sight when it's that way because you've alienated a lot of your old fans.

[The_Patman]

@ KasouReido

A little over twenty four hours ago, I asked that that you edit a post of yours on the previous page that violated the board rules of no heavy swearing and personal attacks against an admin. During that time, you edited your post once, fixing the language issue but left the personal attacks in knowing full well you were still in violation of the board's rules despite my warning. While Ken may be man enough to take it, personal attacks against anyone is still uncalled for and a violation of the rules of this message board. If this and the rant on this page is any indication of what may follow in the coming weeks, I am not willing to take the risk of possibly more rules being deliberately broken by you and my kindness being taken advantage of again.

A reminder to everyone to be perfectly clear. There is absolutely nothing wrong with posting criticism of Ken's works here, no matter how harsh it may be. However, getting personal and nasty with anyone on this board is uncalled for under ANY circumstance. That's the rules here, and if they are deliberately broken, there will be consequences.

[KaosuReido]

So, you're saying that, no one can criticize Penders, because to do so would violate the rules of the forum?

That's... well, that's rather odd, isn't it? Is this going to be a hugbox? You're just going to ban anyone with an opinion that isn't couched in hug words, so no one gets their feelings hurt?

That's what you're saying. If you don't like something, you wrap it up as an "attack", so you don't have to deal with it. How nice.

[The_Patman]

Criticizing Ken is fine. Calling him derogatory names is not. I don't make the rules. I just enforce them.

[Sir Bert Leaman]

I’m not about to question the mods here, but I do want to address Kaosu’s sentiment. This is a project that in its current form in going to be widely seen as fan fiction. That’s kinda what it looks like to me, at this point. I appreciate what you did in the old days, Ken, I really do. You set up a lot that other talents have come in and taken further. That’s the nature of this sort of beast, isn’t it?

You put a lot of ingredients into that melting pot but now there are other cooks in the kitchen. What you did though is still something to take note of and, no matter how the book evolves, you shouldn’t feel like you’ve done any less. That said, the old days are over.

What Kaosu said does make sense though, at least from the standpoint that it looks like you’re clinging to those old days. I mean, if I saw these character designs on a cover in a comic shop, my initial thought would be that they were from an Archie Sonic book. To me, these look entirely derivative of that universe and, regardless of your intent, if one person see’s it that way, others are bound to as well.

On the other hand, if I saw that last redesign, I’d never have guessed that would be Lien-Da. While I’d still think it was someone from the Sonic universe, they’d be wholly visually unrecognizable as the character from before which would go far to kill the connection to those old stories. Also, I find her really hard to look at. The purple and green together are just really jarring. Personally, I might have tried giving her pallet some deep red instead of the green.

Still, what really bothers me is this is over a decade removed from when these were new. There’s no point in me rehashing it all because I think Kaosu hit the nail on the head. This is either too far removed for new fans or you’ve alienated/angered the old fans to the point you’re looking at a teeny tiny market.

Ken, to be perfectly honest, I never liked your anthro art much though I thought you did humans alright and I fondly remember a number of your characters and plots. That said, I would really like to see you break away from anything remotely resembling Sonic and co and see more totally original works.

[Luger]

Kaosu, you can criticize while being civil about it. Stop acting like you can't when clearly several members are doing it without being warned by the mods.

Here's what confuses me. It seems most people angry at Ken don't think he'll win the legal battle against Archie, yourself included. If you feel that way, why are you throwing a temper tantrum about this? Perhaps you think your tirades against him will change his mind. But consider the fact that Ken has obviously been planning to do something with the characters and stories he created for years now. He's already gone this far to get the legal standing to do so, and if the legal battle ends in his favour then I don't think any amount of rage from elements of the Sonic fandom will deter him. If you think his new character designs look lame and you find the whole graphic novel idea nonsense then don't support the project. Plain and simple.

Ian Flynn doesn't seem to know what to do with the majority of Ken's characters and plot elements. Many of Ken's characters have been outright killed off or ignored/underdeveloped for so long, it's pathetic. For a long time this was justified with the lame excuse that the cast of characters was simply too large. However since Ian took over as lead writer there's been a steady influx of Sega-Sonic characters (E-123 Omega, Silver, Cream, Vanilla, Cheese, Dr. Fukurokov, Grand Battle Kukku XV, Speedy) as well as the introduction of new Archie-Sonic characters (Conquering Storm, Rich Nights, Endless Reach, Constant Vigil, Akhlut, Beauregard, Thrash). I have nothing against the introduction of new characters, but clearly the excuse that the cast was too large doesn't hold water, especially after the release of Sonic Universe which was meant to help develop the secondary cast. It's more likely that Ian simply didn't know what to do with many of the characters which led to him killing them off or constantly side-lining them. He's certainly done a terrible job with the one's he's kept around (for example, turning Lien-Da into one of Eggman's lackeys, or making Geoffrey St. John an Ixian wizard).

Given the kind of treatment Ken's characters and story elements have received under Ian in the past, and given that most of Ken's [remaining] characters/plot elements are either entirely ignored or barely receive development at present, I don't see how their complete removal from the series (a likely outcome if Ken wins the legal case) would really hurt the book or change the current storytelling. The way I see it, those who dislike Ken's characters/plot elements would no longer have to worry about them in the Archie series, plus there would be "more space" to develop the remaining cast of characters. Meanwhile those who love Ken's characters and plot elements could enjoy them in Ken's graphic novel series.

Many strongly disagree with Ken's approach towards Archie. But take a step back for a moment and look at the situation. Archie Comics makes millions (billions?) of dollars annually; they have enough money to crank out half a dozen reprint titles relating to Archie Sonic alone (many of these are redundant and utterly pointless). Yet they're too cheap to pay royalties to the production staff who created the comics they are reprinting! For that reason alone Ken deserves support. If anyone honestly thinks Archie couldn't afford to pay for royalties, or that if they had to pay for the use of the characters Ken claims ownership of they'd somehow be hurt financially, you're fooling yourselves. Archie Comics could end this whole debacle tomorrow for an amount of money that's trivial to them, and yet they're going to drag this on for as long as possible. Regardless of whether you agree with Ken's approach to copyright his creations or not, it's Archie Comics that should be the target of your outrage for their sheer greed.

[Ken Penders]

@Sir Bert Leaman:

I appreciate your reasonable comments and think you make some valid points. However, you're not in my position and like the vast majority of the commentators haven't grasped the bigger picture. For starters, most of the naysayers expressing their opinion are coming from a perspective that I'm going to lose my cases. Maybe I will, but the fact is from my perspective I've well positioned myself to win, which is why I feel comfortable moving forward with my work. At a minimum, I will prove Archie owns nothing beyond the right to publish the comic books featuring new adventures of SONIC. Whether they'll be able to continue using anything created prior to Ian's run will also be resolved at my trial. Should I win, unless some agreement is made between Archie and I, at a minimum they also won't be able to reprint any of my stories as well as any stories based off of my work. And if I win, there will be ramifications felt beyond Archie.

I am receiving plenty of support these days, both from readers who enjoyed my previous material and really like what I've released so far, as well as support both from the fan community and fellow creators concerning my case, to say nothing of those who will be actually taking the stand in support of me during my trial. This isn't a he said/they said by any stretch of the imagination.

While everyone is expressing the opinion that the series is enjoying its longevity precisely because it's based on a hit video game series, crediting the work of Sega over all else, there's a flip side to the story and amply demonstrated by the fact no other video game series has ever enjoyed the longevity and success that SONIC has. Take the Nintendo line published by Valiant Comics back in the 90's, which I also worked on. The creators were hamstrung by Nintendo what they could and couldn't do, and so the project failed pretty quickly. That could have easily been Sonic's fate way back when, but it's a testament to the creators and editors who worked on the SONIC series that that didn't happen, not anything that Sega and/or Archie itself did.

I try to respond to the best of my ability these days, but there are some questions I just can't answer as satisfactorily as people would like until after my trial. We'll see what the landscape is like after the trial concludes.

One last note: anyone posting ©Archie after any of their drawings based on anything published in the Archie SONIC series, please stop doing that. Either credit ©Sega if it's their material, ©Ken Penders if it's mine, and even ©Scott Fulop (AKA Kent Taylor), ©Karl Bollers or ©MIke Gallagher if it's their characters. But whatever you do, there is no such thing as ©Archie regarding anything related to these books. That is a fact.

[Tylinos]

Should I win, unless some agreement is made between Archie and I, at a minimum they also won't be able to reprint any of my stories as well as any stories based off of my work. And if I win, there will be ramifications felt beyond Archie.

So much for that thing a while back about this being merely about wanting rights and royalties and not being interested in hurting the current comic.

I am receiving plenty of support these days, both from readers who enjoyed my previous material and really like what I've released so far, as well as support both from the fan community and fellow creators concerning my case, to say nothing of those who will be actually taking the stand in support of me during my trial. This isn't a he said/they said by any stretch of the imagination.

While I can't say much for support I can't see, I will say the reason I suggested looking to the general opinion around the internet was to show you how many fans you've lost because of how you've been acting in regards to all of this, not to claim you have zero support and try to dissuade you from doing anything. If you realize just how many people you've driven away, you can still turn around and continue this whole thing with a better attitude and possibly win back support. It's not like it's a choice between going about this whole thing and losing fans, or ending it and keeping fans. You can still go about it and keep fans at the same time if you changed your attitude regarding it all. Just listen to what people have been saying. Even if you win the case and still have some fans supporting you, it'd be a hollow victory when in order to win you've driven away a multitude of your former fans.

While everyone is expressing the opinion that the series is enjoying its longevity precisely because it's based on a hit video game series, crediting the work of Sega over all else, there's a flip side to the story and amply demonstrated by the fact no other video game series has ever enjoyed the longevity and success that SONIC has. Take the Nintendo line published by Valiant Comics back in the 90's, which I also worked on. The creators were hamstrung by Nintendo what they could and couldn't do, and so the project failed pretty quickly. That could have easily been Sonic's fate way back when, but it's a testament to the creators and editors who worked on the SONIC series that that didn't happen, not anything that Sega and/or Archie itself did.

And yet we have the Fleetway Sonic series, which is almost always agreed by fans to have been better than the Archie series, but it died off nearly a decade ago. (Online fan continuation non-withstanding.)

One last note: anyone posting ©Archie after any of their drawings based on anything published in the Archie SONIC series, please stop doing that. Either credit ©Sega if it's their material, ©Ken Penders if it's mine, and even ©Scott Fulop (AKA Kent Taylor), ©Karl Bollers or ©MIke Gallagher if it's their characters. But whatever you do, there is no such thing as ©Archie regarding anything related to these books. That is a fact.

...What. Didn't you yourself claim that the only reason your stuff isn't copyright of Archie is that they screwed up your contract stuff? Stuff made by people such as Ian, for instance, would be copyright of Archie because it would be work-for-hire.


EDIT: Commented on a few other things.

[Mavrickindigo]

Now, see, THAT would be a story arc. The Echidnas being shown as flawed, lazy, egotistical hypocrites. However, it was never written that way. They were portrayed as the most powerful force on the planet, and that it was their birthright, and how DARE anyone suggest otherwise. Are you going to suggest Robotnik was beneath them? I mean, that's a little odd when he took over an entire planet in ten years, and has invaded their island multiple times. I guess he's not an Echidna, though, so he's worthless by default.

Let's not forget it was Ken who wrote those stories too. If the Brotherhood is so good at what they do, where were they when Robotnik burrowed a giant ship into the bottom of the island, outfitted it with guns, and tried to ram it directly into Knothole? (Sonic and Knuckles #1). Also, how did he know where Knothole was when a major plot point, even through Endgame, was that he had no idea where it was?

@ KasouReido

A little over twenty four hours ago, I asked that that you edit a post of yours on the previous page that violated the board rules of no heavy swearing and personal attacks against an admin. During that time, you edited your post once, fixing the language issue but left the personal attacks in knowing full well you were still in violation of the board's rules despite my warning. While Ken may be man enough to take it, personal attacks against anyone is still uncalled for and a violation of the rules of this message board. If this and the rant on this page is any indication of what may follow in the coming weeks, I am not willing to take the risk of possibly more rules being deliberately broken by you and my kindness being taken advantage of again.

A reminder to everyone to be perfectly clear. There is absolutely nothing wrong with posting criticism of Ken's works here, no matter how harsh it may be. However, getting personal and nasty with anyone on this board is uncalled for under ANY circumstance. That's the rules here, and if they are deliberately broken, there will be consequences.

Is there a reason this is out in the open for all of us to see? This kind of message should be relegated to private messages. I'm an administrator of a forum, and I know you don't go and tell people in public this kind of thing. It seems too much like putting him in the stocks to be mad an example of for the rest of us.

Ian Flynn doesn't seem to know what to do with the majority of Ken's characters and plot elements. Many of Ken's characters have been outright killed off or ignored/underdeveloped for so long, it's pathetic.

To be honest, Ken had a knack (or should I say 'Nic') for developing characters who were superfluous because they filled a role a previous character could have easily done. Not only that, but most of the guys who were outright killed were really really bit players. "oh no, that one legionnaire who stood in the background for three panels and did nothing died! Whatever will we do?" While Ian isn't using the Brotherhood, they are not forgotten, in 232, we see they are at the forefront of Knuckles' mind.

For a long time this was justified with the lame excuse that the cast of characters was simply too large.

Perhaps they weren't "too large" just "too redundant" as I suggested earlier.

However since Ian took over as lead writer there's been a steady influx of Sega-Sonic characters (E-123 Omega, Silver, Cream, Vanilla, Cheese, Dr. Fukurokov, Grand Battle Kukku XV, Speedy)

Adding actual video game characters that players recognize in a video game comic? what a revolutionary idea!

as well as the introduction of new Archie-Sonic characters (Conquering Storm, Rich Nights, Endless Reach, Constant Vigil, Akhlut, Beauregard, Thrash).

Notice how all of these characters bring in something new to the series though? The brides flesh out the dragon kingdom, as well as bring the yagyu into focus, and give Espio and Lightning Lynx some development. The grandmasters provide villains for sectors of the world so far unseen (plus giving Bunnie a dilemma in having to fight her uncle).

I have nothing against the introduction of new characters, but clearly the excuse that the cast was too large doesn't hold water, especially after the release of Sonic Unieverse which was meant to help develop the secondary cast.

The cast itself was bloated. We had 20 "Knuckles' grandfathers" running around doing the same thing over and over again, not to mention all sorts of other useless people who showed up once and were never used again. (how many times did Penders use Catweazle?)

It's more likely that Ian simply didn't know what to do with many of the characters which led to him killing them off or constantly side-lining them. He's certainly done a terrible job with the one's he's kept around (for example, turning Lien-Da into one of Eggman's lackeys, or making Geoffrey St. John an Ixian wizard).

I like what has been done with Lien-Da. I've felt a lot more for her in Ian's run than I have in anyone else's. She was just a random villain in tight spandex beforehand, now she's a character whose ambition for power but always falling short drives her and enrages her and we actually see the character in motion, like when she tried to take control of things in the Iron dominion arc and got blown half to smithereens for it, only to come back and try once again to get what she wanted. She'd determined, she most certainly isn't a "Lackey" Through Eggman (and deceit against Dimitri), she became the leader she wanted to become, her people be damned.

And if Penders wanted her portrayed as actually caring for her people...he really should have done a better job.

Geoffrey...yeah I'm waiting until this story pans out to see if it works or not. RIght now it has me scratching my head, but I don't think its fair to judge it until it's explained.

Given the kind of treatment Ken's characters and story elements have received under Ian in the past, and given that most of Ken's [remaining] characters/plot elements are either entirely ignored or barely receive development at present,

I quite enjoy how Finitevus delves into the history of the echidnas, and the development of the "Enerjak spirit" hints at Aurora development and the completion of the original lara su timeline

[Lammy]

[Ken Penders]

@Tylinos:

So much for that thing a while back about this being merely about wanting rights and royalties and not being interested in hurting the current comic.

To say I don't care about the SONIC series is simply untrue. Of course Sonic is important to me. The passion I hold for the comic is evidenced by my standing up to protect my copyrights. It is precisely because I care about this series and my contribution to make it what is is today that is the driving force behind my efforts to make sure comic book publishers fairly recognize the contributions their writers, illustrators and other artists (inkers, letterers, colorists) make to the franchise. This is strictly an issue of standing up for what is right and making sure that all artists, including myself, are fairly recognized and compensated for their work.

The sales from any of the reprinted works or digital downloads go straight into Sega and Archie's pockets and none at all to any of the creators that produced the material which is enjoyed on a global scale that no one foresaw back in the day.

You are confusing issues. As a freelance artist, I can not make decisions for the Archie publishers or anyone else. I can't force them to negotiate a settlement. I can't force them to recognize my work any more than I can force them to recognize the contributions of, say Dan DeCarlo, or any other member of the creative teams behind their comic book publications.

You say I've lost fans in this process. If that is true, then it is truly their loss. When one writer or artist is exploited, all creators who walk in their footsteps lose their rights as well.

Not to disparage Ian, but he isn't an attorney. Any assumptions he may make about freelance writers and artists and work-for-hire contracts are just that, assumptions. Remember, just because someone says it doesn't make it true. Ian has no personal knowledge of what happened in the 90's or any personal knowledge of whether work-for-hire contracts even existed at the time. His experience and mine aren't necessarily one and the same.

Historically, comic book publishers have always asserted they owned everything as work-for-hire, even though that changed with the 1976 Copyright laws. Legal battles such as that between Archie and Dan DeCarlo over who owns Josie and the Pussycats, for one, or even Superman, Iron Man and other comic creations from other publishers against the estates of Siegel & Shuster and Kirby respectively, are perfect examples.

@Lammy:

Knuckles' ancestors would naturally physically resemble something close to his basic physical appearance just as you are an offspring from your parents. That alone doesn't mean the characters themselves are derived from Sega and/or Archie. I could've done any number of scenarios to set Knuckles up in a viable series and some fans would still say the series is Sega-based, even though there is nothing whatsoever in any of the games that even remotely resembles either what I presented in the series or could have used in place of what I actually did.

Here's the flip side: I simply base Knuckles solely on what is presented in the games and he goes no further than the original PRINCESS SALLY mini-series. Does that mean I failed or Sega just didn't come up with enough material to make the character a viable long-term franchise? To say I failed ignores the fact of other licensed properties such as the Nintendo titles in comic book series crashing and burning early in their runs because they were too faithful to the source material, which did not allow for serial narratives in their set-up.

[Tylinos]

To say I don't care about the SONIC series is simply untrue. Of course Sonic is important to me. The passion I hold for the comic is evidenced by my standing up to protect my copyrights. It is precisely because I care about this series and my contribution to make it what is is today that is the driving force behind my efforts to make sure comic book publishers fairly recognize the contributions their writers, illustrators and other artists (inkers, letterers, colorists) make to the franchise. This is strictly an issue of standing up for what is right and making sure that all artists, including myself, are fairly recognized and compensated for their work.

What you said there isn't showing you caring for the series so much as caring for your own compensation. Which is fine and all, but it's not showing you actually caring for the series itself so much as your own work relative to the series.

Regarding both your fanbase and the sales bit, what comes to mind is a post I recently read in the 20+ page topic regarding this situation at the Sonic Retro forums, a topic I recommend checking out despite its offputting topic title ( http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=21670 ) :

Now, I've never read the comics, but this interests me nonetheless. What's happening here is simple: Ken decides his loving and loyal fanbase, built magnificently through singlehandedly reinventing the beloved Sonic comic, wouldn't mind if he crushed his legacy by preventing any of his defining work from ever being sold ever in the hopes of a little cash. And he expects people to continue reading his works. And when you point out any of those mysterious flaws in the idea, he attempts to OC:DNS. ("Original Character: Do Not Steal")

And about the "When one writer or artist is exploited, all creators who walk in their footsteps lose their rights as well.": In most cases like this, you often find a lot of people rooting for the guy for exactly that reason, and most often them gaining popularity through it, yet during this you've only lost popularity with fans. And like they said, it's not because of you trying to stick up for your creations, but because of how you've acted during it.

Not to disparage Ian, but he isn't an attorney. Any assumptions he may make about freelance writers and artists and work-for-hire contracts are just that, assumptions. Remember, just because someone says it doesn't make it true. Ian has no personal knowledge of what happened in the 90's or any personal knowledge of whether work-for-hire contracts even existed at the time. His experience and mine aren't necessarily one and the same.

I never said Ian claimed you had a work-for-hire contract. I was using him as an example through work-for-hire to disprove your claim that nothing in these books can be copyright of Archie, not necessarily the ones related directly to you.

Historically, comic book publishers have always asserted they owned everything as work-for-hire, even though that changed with the 1976 Copyright laws. Legal battles such as that between Archie and Dan DeCarlo over who owns Josie and the Pussycats, for one, or even Superman, Iron Man and other comic creations from other publishers against the estates of Siegel & Shuster and Kirby respectively, are perfect examples.

Perfect examples of...what? The Superman thing was pre-1976, and the DeCarlo one was ruled in favour of Archie. (As for Iron Man, I've never heard about the legal battles on him, so I can't comment.)

(EDIT: Did some research and found what you were talking about with Iron Man. It was deemed that Jack Kirby was work-for-hire and Marvel won the case. So I still don't see why you're using this example. Why not use examples of post-1976-laws cases where the publishers asserted work-for-hire but were proven wrong?)

Knuckles' ancestors would naturally physically resemble something close to his basic physical appearance just as you are an offspring from your parents. That alone doesn't mean the characters themselves are derived from Sega and/or Archie.

But the fact that they were created as characters specifically to be relatives to a Sega character does.

Here's the flip side: I simply base Knuckles solely on what is presented in the games and he goes no further than the original PRINCESS SALLY mini-series. Does that mean I failed or Sega just didn't come up with enough material to make the character a viable long-term franchise? To say I failed ignores the fact of other licensed properties such as the Nintendo titles in comic book series crashing and burning early in their runs because they were too faithful to the source material, which did not allow for serial narratives in their set-up.

Quality, or quantity? Remember what I said about Fleetway. Sure, it died out after a 10 year (and 200+ issue) run, but its stories, which stuck rather close to the source material, are almost always agreed to be better than the Archie series was during the same time. And it's not even like they ran out of stuff to use or couldn't run on serial narratives, either. They had rather long story arcs based on the games, and were still coming out with new ones for a long while. The reason they ended? Budget cuts, and then the publisher suddenly deciding to stop having new stories be written and just do reprints, something which even surprised the then-current lead writer, who was in the middle of a story arc at the time.


EDIT: Somehow I overlooked the copyright examples thing. I added a comment on it.

EDIT 2: Updated the Iron Man thing after some research.

[Mavrickindigo]

I like when people call Ken out on how selfish this graphic novel campaign is, after he admits he's threatening Archie to prevent them to use his characters, he tells us "I'm doing it for the little guy!"

If you were really doing this just to get your royalties that would be nice for any writer to get, making a graphic novel series with designs ripped off of sega sure is not the way to make you look like the hero.

And when a lot of the fans you want to win over like Ian Flynn and you go "OH IAN CAN'T WRITE MY CHARACTERS, I KNOW THIS BECAUSE MY HEAVILY BIASED FANS TELL ME SO AND I DON'T GO AND READ IT MYSELF," it just makes you look even more like a jerk.

[Antarctic Deity]

To say I don't care about the SONIC series is simply untrue.

Ya hate Eggman with a passion, you've never played a Sonic game, you used half of your stories to plug an independent product and you wouldn't even read the other writers' material WHEN YOU WERE ON THE BOOK WITH THEM. Sonic may be 'important', but when that importance is less than two dollars and fifty cents the term's being a bit misused. I do find it hilarious that you state you have a deep and passionate care for Sonic at the same time you boast that Sonic's story is terrible and nothing you wrote had any connection to it.

And yes, if all the characters are derived from Knuckles, they're derived from Sega. Because Knuckles is Sega, as your staff so brilliantly figured out recently. It's a good thing they caught it before your new design for him came out!

[Ken Penders]

@Tylinos:

What you said there isn't showing you caring for the series so much as caring for your own compensation.

First and foremost, comic books are a business. If the publishers and creators are unable to make money producing them, then there are no long-term viable series. Dave Sim would not have kept Cerebus going as long as he has, nor Wendy Pini with Elfquest, to use but two examples, if they could not earn a living from their work. So for you and other fans to enjoy the SONIC series on an ongoing basis, someone must get paid. It's that simple.

Second, in fighting for my compensation, others will also end up compensated as well as a result. Whether it's the creators who worked on previous SONIC stories, future works or both, others will be compensated if I am successful in my fight.

If it all sounds like me-me-me to you and others, this is a fight I didn't want to make, didn't choose to make, but nonetheless had to make because of the actions of others. I'm responsible solely for my own actions and deeply appreciate the help and support I've received from family, friends, fans and colleagues who have provided it ever since this whole thing began.

I was using him as an example through work-for-hire to disprove your claim that nothing in these books can be copyright of Archie

Even if Ian's contributions were work-for-hire, that does not mean Archie owns the copyrights. That's why there are lawyers to sort out this mess.

[Tylinos]

Even if Ian's contributions were work-for-hire, that does not mean Archie owns the copyrights.

I... What. The entire point of work-for-hire law is that it gives the publisher the copyrights.

[Ken Penders]

@Tylinos:

The entire point of work-for-hire law is that it gives the publisher the copyrights.

The copyrights originate with the creator, be it a writer, artist, sculptor, etc., unless there is a written agreement in place between the creator and the buyer - in this case, the comic book publisher - BEFORE the work is created. That written agreement spells out who owns what, under what terms and how much the compensation is. Absent that agreement, there is no such thing as an automatic transfer of rights from the creator to the publisher, thus the work is not work-for-hire.

Let's look at the situation another way that may make things easier to understand.

Back in the 70's, Marvel Comics licensed the rights to produce CONAN THE BARBARIAN and DOC SAVAGE comic books. If you look around these days, those very same CONAN stories are published in reprint collections by Dark Horse Comics, while those very same DOC SAVAGE stories are collected in a trade paperback edition published by DC Comics. Even STAR TREK has made the rounds through several publishers, including Gold Key, DC, Marvel, Malibu and now IDW. How is this possible, you ask? None of the publishers owned any of the properties, just like Archie doesn't own the SONIC series. Somewhere down the road, at the very least there's a very good chance someone other than Archie will be reprinting the SONIC stories that have been published since the book began. This is possible due to the fact Archie Comics does not own any of the copyrights. None. Zero. Nada.

I hope this clears up any confusion you may have on the matter.

[Tylinos]

Wait, wait. I think I understand what you're saying now. You just worded the original post poorly. And the later posts on it as well. You just mean to say anything in a work-for-hire agreement would be copyright of Sega, yes? See, the entire problem was that the way you worded things made it sound like you were saying only Sonic game characters would be copyright of Sega, and non-game characters from the comics, even when created through work-for-hire, would still be copyright of people such as Bollers or Flynn even if they had a proper work-for-hire agreement.

I'd say it was my fault for misreading the original post, but everywhere I've seen commenting on that post interpretted it the same way as I did. Still, if it was just bad wording, then no harm, no foul. Or whatever the phrase is.

[HauntedExodus]

I still don't understand how you believe that these characters are separate from the IP of Knuckles, visually, when they look like Knuckles in a wig, or Knuckles dressed as Poison Ivy.

You say that Howard the Duck and Donald Duck are very similar, but here's the difference: they look like ducks. WHAT OTHER cartoon Echidnas look like the unique SEGA-styled design?

There aren't. That design is specific to Knuckles, SEGA's property. Let's say that you succeeded -- you would have to completely redesign these guys from the bottom up. Make them look like actual echidnas.

Also, these characters are too closely tied to the Sonic franchise for it to fly. They would have to be completely unrelated to a Floating Island/Angel Island mythos. No Guardian. No Master Emerald. Nothing. Your characters/stories would be unrecognizable from what you'd like them to be.

So let's be realistic. What do you think SEGA is going to let you get away with?