"A Moment of Archie Sonic" blog

[Mavrickindigo]

http://amomentofarchiesonic.tumblr.com/

what do you guys think of this blog?

[SynjoDeonecros]

I like it. I find it to be akin to Superdickery.com, but for Archie Sonic. Sure, he slams on Ken a lot, and a few things he comments on I can't see the problem with, but at least he doesn't focus mainly on the bad art or on Ken. It's good to look back at the more goofy moments of the comic and have a good laugh, even if you like it.

[Ken Penders]

@Mavrickindigo:

This sort of thing goes with the territory. What Sonic fans don't get is that the negative reaction to me by a section of Sonic fandom isn't unique. Just check out how fandom has divided over the Siegel & Shuster claim to Superman, or the Kirby Estate to Marvel characters, or essentially any creator laying claim to work they created for a publisher. Same thing.

I even get that the fans perceive everything originating with Sega as opposed to any other possible act of creation, simply because the SONIC games, cartoons and comic existed first as far as they're concerned. The act of creation is far more complicated than any discussion amongst Sonic fandom I've seen posted online, but I'm not going to be the one that changes minds, because my positions are considered biased to my interests alone.

Obviously, while there are factions among Sonic fandom to whom the removal of any and all of my contributions would be a welcome relief, the fact is there must be value to my work, or else how do you explain three companies and many fans arguing over whether or not I own my work? That's the bottom line, no matter how many people criticize what I've done.

The one thing that I've never seen Sonic and/or Knuckles fans debate extensively is how well my Knuckles stories would work divorced from the Sega association. Change the characters of Knuckles and the Chaotix, alter the Chaos Emerald into something else (or even eliminate it altogether), and you still have the same remaining cast of characters and same stories. There is nothing Sega-generated about the series beyond those five characters and one hunk of rock. As for the arguments concerning the designs, that's a subject for a later discussion, but one I'm willing to make at the appropriate time. All I ask is patience on that one.

[Mavrickindigo]

The one thing that I've never seen Sonic and/or Knuckles fans debate extensively is how well my Knuckles stories would work divorced from the Sega association. Change the characters of Knuckles and the Chaotix, alter the Chaos Emerald into something else (or even eliminate it altogether), and you still have the same remaining cast of characters and same stories. There is nothing Sega-generated about the series beyond those five characters and one hunk of rock.

I'm pretty sure we've been telling you that (and a good number of people outsider this forum have been wondering why you haven't) for a very long time. Heck, people used to claim you took an old story of yours, changed characters into Echidnas, and shoved them into the book to get your story out there in some form. I'd think it would be a lot less of a headache for you to make your Superman-inspired society and its technophile and "antitechnology" super technological factions if you kept yourself as far away from SEGA as possible.

[SynjoDeonecros]

Seriously, Ken? You're going to argue that the site is defaming your integrity? Even though roughly half to 3/4ths of the material on it is making fun of other people's work instead of your own, and the site even gave you an unbiased analysis on your lawsuit? What, are you going to argue against Linkara for slamming on your Sonic Live comic, as well? I thought you were better than this, seriously.

Honestly, you lost a LOT of respect points from me, with that rant; I een had my roommate look at what you said, and he agrees with me that it sounds like you're just frustrated that they're making fun of some of your work, because you think it's uncalled for. Like I said, this is just Superdickery for the Sonic comics; nothing more than a fun little look back to the goofier moments of the comic, not meant to really offend anyone, just pointing out the goofy. And like I said, most of it isn't even from your work (one of the artists that they slam even wrote the site asking them to slam on her more; I believe it was Dawn Best who did that), and they gave an unbiased rundown on the lawsuit, and even asked if it was appropriate for them to continue to rip up on your work, asking for people's opinions, so obviously they ARE concerned about your opinion. Your argument just sounds... petty, to me.

[Antarctic Deity]

What's hilarious is none of that rant is even relevant to the blog. Not a single word.

That blog isn't defaming you for your copyright shenanigans. It's talking about how bad the books used to be. As always, it'd probably be best if you took at least a cursory glance at something before talking about it.

[SynjoDeonecros]

What's hilarious is none of that rant is even relevant to the blog. Not a single word.

That blog isn't defaming you for your copyright shenanigans. It's talking about how bad the books used to be. As always, it'd probably be best if you took at least a cursory glance at something before talking about it.

Yeah. The only real point that focused on the copyright lawsuit is an unbiased description of it for those not in the know. I read it, and it truly is unbiased, just giving the facts without adding any snark either way.

Personally, I like the blog; a lot of the stuff they point out I never even realized until they posted it up, like the Chester Cheetah look-alike.

[Mavrickindigo]

Actually, it seems like he's going to be doing some entries based on Penders' art, Sonic and non-Sonic. But that's only because people are begging him to tear Ken a new one.

[Ken Penders]

@SynjoDeoncros:

Seriously, Ken? You're going to argue that the site is defaming your integrity? Even though roughly half to 3/4ths of the material on it is making fun of other people's work instead of your own, and the site even gave you an unbiased analysis on your lawsuit? What, are you going to argue against Linkara for slamming on your Sonic Live comic, as well? I thought you were better than this, seriously.

I'm at a loss how to respond to your posting, because I'm not sure what I said that implied the site was defaming my integrity. I went and checked out the site and simply observed fans expressing their opinions. If they want to criticize aspects of the work or stories that appeared throughout the series, fine. That's what the first amendment is all about. I try to engage in reasonable conversations here and respond in a manner how I'd like people to treat me, which is with a modicum of consideration. I don't ask or expect for you or others to agree with me, just respect we may have differences of opinion.

People have criticized SONIC LIVE! before and they will continue to do so, but the audience for that book wasn't necessarily anyone over a certain age. There are certain issues I can point to - that being one of them - when parents inquire what would be a good issue to read to their child younger than a certain age, and it was from the perspective of a parent when I did work on certain stories that there was a certain segment of the audience I was aiming for. Whether the effort was successful or not is determined by the audience, not me.

I don't talk down to people, don't call them names, nor do I ridicule their position. How someone interprets what I post here is beyond my control, but it said in a tone I can't believe anyone would find more than what is used in normal conversation.

[SynjoDeonecros]

Let's just be fair, the way you worded things did make it seem like you were just whining that people were attacking your work and defaming your integrity. And like AntarcticDeity stated, part of your complaints were about the lawsuit when the only part of the blog that had anything to do with the lawsuit was the description of it that the owner made, so honestly, how else was anyone supposed to take it? The very first sentence in your rant talked about other copyright lawsuits and people's reactions to THAT, for crying out loud! In that kind of context, it does sound like you were just whining because people were hating on your work, and jumping on the bandwagon of "they just hate it because they don't like the lawsuit", when that isn't even the case here. Hell, the entire thing sounds like you're saying "People want my stuff gone, they hate my lawsuit, they don't know what goes on with this so they have no right to complain", etc. As I said, roughly half if not most of the stuff on there isn't even yours, so I don't really see the argument you're trying to make, here.

And seriously? Feeding us the "You're not the target audience, so you can't criticize my work" line? When something is bad, it doesn't matter what age range it's for, it's still bad. Technically, I'm way out of the age range for the entire franchise, but that doesn't mean I'm not able to criticize it when it turns bad. If I had children, I wouldn't want them to play Sonic '06, for instance, because of how bad it is, regardless if it's for their age range or not.

Honestly, it's starting to sound more and more like you're growing paranoid over this lawsuit and your reputation, and that doesn't endear me to you, no matter how nicely you try to put it. I'll still defend your good work, since I don't believe in bashing someone's achievements just to spite them, but I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to take your initial argument or your response other than a writer past his prime trying to get back into the spotlight with what made him famous, in the first place.

[PaulAgnew]

Actually, it seems like he's going to be doing some entries based on Penders' art, Sonic and non-Sonic. But that's only because people are begging him to tear Ken a new one.

Now that's cheating. The work Ken produced for titles like Star Trek (both DC and Malibu), Captan Atom, Conan and Disney were as good as any other artists on the books. And I know what I am talking about for once since a small fortune was spent recently importing a fair collection of them.

The only regret I have is not buying them from the artist himself.

[Tylinos]

People have criticized SONIC LIVE! before and they will continue to do so, but the audience for that book wasn't necessarily anyone over a certain age. There are certain issues I can point to - that being one of them - when parents inquire what would be a good issue to read to their child younger than a certain age, and it was from the perspective of a parent when I did work on certain stories that there was a certain segment of the audience I was aiming for. Whether the effort was successful or not is determined by the audience, not me.

Even ignoring that the whole "not the intended audience" defense is something I've never been a fan of: I was 8 or 9 when I first read Sonic Live!, and I remember not liking it back then, either. (The main story, that is. I forget what I thought of the Subsitute Freedom Fighters story at the time, and I remember enjoying the Knuckles' Quest installment at the time. Still do, actually.)

Anyway, like other people have pointed out, the blog features many other artists who have contributed to the comic, including ones that even the blog keeper says are usually quite good but have their off days. And that's what the point of this, just having a laugh at some of the bad art the series has had. Like Synjo said, that whole rant earlier did make it seem like you either didn't look at all, or that you assumed this was people having a go at you because of the copyright thing, when that isn't the intention of this blog.

[Mavrickindigo]

People have criticized SONIC LIVE! before and they will continue to do so, but the audience for that book wasn't necessarily anyone over a certain age. There are certain issues I can point to - that being one of them - when parents inquire what would be a good issue to read to their child younger than a certain age, and it was from the perspective of a parent when I did work on certain stories that there was a certain segment of the audience I was aiming for. Whether the effort was successful or not is determined by the audience, not me.

I think most people tend to agree you were aiming the comic solely at the two kids who were inserted into the plot

[Antarctic Deity]

Does Sonic Live assume children can't comprehend the existence of Japanese people?

[PaulAgnew]

Does Sonic Live assume children can't comprehend the existence of Japanese people?

If we go by that logic (and this is regarding the reality jump where humans are rendered like classic eastern cartoon characters), then Speed Racer assumes children don't comprehend the existence of themselves.

[Antarctic Deity]

I was going by the logic that they replaced Yuji Naka and Naoto Ohshima with Mori and Jerry.

[Mavrickindigo]

Did the actual people not want you to use their likenesses, or did you just make up those random characters?

[Ken Penders]

@Mavrickindigo:

Did the actual people not want you to use their likenesses, or did you just make up those random characters?

At the time SONIC LIVE was originally pitched, the last third of the story was supposed to take place at the actual SEGA of America HQ, featuring actual Sega personnel interacting with their mascot during a battle against Dr. Robotnik. The problem with going forward with this aspect of the story had more to do with production logistics, as most the panels on these pages would be mostly photographs layered with art and word balloons. The first problem was actually getting to the west coast in order to take the pictures. The second was getting everyone involved to go along with the plan. SONIC LIVE was initially proposed late in the first quarter of 1994 and didn't end up published until late in 1997, so that ought to give you some idea of the gestation process for this baby.

One other thing, Mori and Jerry ended up representing both the Japanese and American personnel from the company, and have no real life counterparts. At the time they were created, I had yet to hear the name Yuji Naka. Nor had I ever heard the name Naoto Ohshima during the entire time I submitted stories to the series. That's how little we were ever told about Sonic's origins within the company at the time.

[jameygamer]

@Mavrickindigo:

Did the actual people not want you to use their likenesses, or did you just make up those random characters?

At the time SONIC LIVE was originally pitched, the last third of the story was supposed to take place at the actual SEGA of America HQ, featuring actual Sega personnel interacting with their mascot during a battle against Dr. Robotnik. The problem with going forward with this aspect of the story had more to do with production logistics, as most the panels on these pages would be mostly photographs layered with art and word balloons. The first problem was actually getting to the west coast in order to take the pictures. The second was getting everyone involved to go along with the plan. SONIC LIVE was initially proposed late in the first quarter of 1994 and didn't end up published until late in 1997, so that ought to give you some idea of the gestation process for this baby.

One other thing, Mori and Jerry ended up representing both the Japanese and American personnel from the company, and have no real life counterparts. At the time they were created, I had yet to hear the name Yuji Naka. Nor had I ever heard the name Naoto Ohshima during the entire time I submitted stories to the series. That's how little we were ever told about Sonic's origins within the company at the time.

Well, you and Archie were not the first victims of the lack of communication between SOA and the main headquarters back then. That lack of communication is one of the primary reasons for the existence of the 32X. Anyone remember that little gizmo?

[Darkfox]

This was on the blog a few days ago.

So far everyone who has done this has gotten different results.

[Mavrickindigo]

http://amomentofarchiesonic.tumblr.com/ ... t-in-me-or

Time to Microwave the Baby!

[Darkfox]

http://amomentofarchiesonic.tumblr.com/post/17916294604/some-of-these-are-from-things-sent-in-me-or

Time to Microwave the Baby!

That was pretty funny.
Locke is probably one of the worst fathers in fiction.

[Greenman]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up at all, but I'm fairly postive Penders is cribbing from Frank Cho with this picture: http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzgu8vofcn1rnsvazo1_500.gif

http://www.libertymeadows.com/images/junglegirls.jpg
http://apesandbabes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/hasbro-savage-land-frank-cho-b.jpg

[Ken Penders]

@Greenman:

but I'm fairly postive Penders is cribbing from Frank Cho with this picture

Hardly. That pic has been on display in my gallery for years, and was a pin-up I did at the request of writer Ron Fortier for the CAVEWOMAN series he was submitting some scripts to. I illustrated some female fantasy/superhero stories for the FLARE comic with Ron around the same time. Frank Cho was not an influence in any way on my work. While Robert McGuiness, FranK Frazetta, Dave Stevens and others would be bigger influences with regards to that piece, that is strictly 100% original. No cribbing from anyone.

[Greenman]

@Greenman:

but I'm fairly postive Penders is cribbing from Frank Cho with this picture

Hardly. That pic has been on display in my gallery for years, and was a pin-up I did at the request of writer Ron Fortier for the CAVEWOMAN series he was submitting some scripts to. I illustrated some female fantasy/superhero stories for the FLARE comic with Ron around the same time. Frank Cho was not an influence in any way on my work. While Robert McGuiness, FranK Frazetta, Dave Stevens and others would be bigger influences with regards to that piece, that is strictly 100% original. No cribbing from anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SmoBvg-etU#t=28s